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Mean radius and inaccurate hunting rifles

When I am doing the final scope adjustment of a rifle that will not be shot off of a rest, I pull the rest back so that I can lay my wrist in the bag, and hold the rifle with my hand. I shoot with no rear bag with the rifle shouldered like it would be for an off hand or sitting shot. From a bench, If you take your time, and pay close attention to what you are doing, you can hold things still enough to do useful adjustments, and the rifle will react similar to how it would in the field. The trick is to not jerk the trigger but rather gradually apply pressure and let the rifle surprise you, obviously not for taking a quick standing shot at close range. LIke the others, I have a low opinion of the accuracy potential of Lead Sleds. If you are worried about recoil, I suggest a strap on pad.
 
Figuring out the scopes parallax focal point is also crucial to making small groups. If it’s fixed and focused at 100 yards, every other range is going to be opening up the groups unless the exact weld is achieved.
 
When I am doing the final scope adjustment of a rifle that will not be shot off of a rest, I pull the rest back so that I can lay my wrist in the bag, and hold the rifle with my hand. I shoot with no rear bag with the rifle shouldered like it would be for an off hand or sitting shot. From a bench, If you take your time, and pay close attention to what you are doing, you can hold things still enough to do useful adjustments, and the rifle will react similar to how it would in the field. The trick is to not jerk the trigger but rather gradually apply pressure and let the rifle surprise you, obviously not for taking a quick standing shot at close range. LIke the others, I have a low opinion of the accuracy potential of Lead Sleds. If you are worried about recoil, I suggest a strap on pad.
I have a strap on recoil pad specifically for my Browning A-bolt 300 WSM. Lightweight with a red rubber anti slip butt plate that does nothing to soak up recoil. After 6 shots or so, my vision starts getting blurry so I haven’t shot this rifle much since that started happening. A few weeks ago I took it out with 3 different bullets to test with Winchester LRM’s and H414. Shot it 12 times with the pad and could still see clearly when I was done. I’ve never used a lead sled but have a buddy that shoots everything in his. To each their own.
 
I have just discovered the theory of Mean Radius and have conducted 10 shot, 200 yard testing on handloads for a remington 742 woodsmaster in .30-06 that I inherited.

My first load was 49 grains of IMR-4350 with hornady brass, speer 150 gr. spitzers and cci primers. This load had an extreme spread of 9 inches, and a mean radius of 4 at 200 yards. R95 of 4*1.3=5.2. This gives a 95% confidence of landing your shots in a 10.4 inch circle. This seemed too big for deer hunting so I moved on to the next load.

My second load was 48 grains of IMR-4895 with federal brass, speer 150 gr. spitzers and cci primers. This load had an extreme spread of 7 inches, and a mean radius of 2.48 at 200 yards. This is a tried and true M1 Garand powder and bullet weight. The 95% confidence level or R95 = 2.48*1.3=3.224. This means that a high percentage of shots will land in a 6.5 inch circle at 200 yards. I don't hunt anywhere that would offer a 200 yard shot I think I will use this load.

Testing was conducted on windless days, from a lead sled, with 3 minutes between each shot.

I think this method is generally thought of as relevant only to accurate, long range rifles, however, it seems that it is just as relevant for the short range, less accurate deer hunting rifle. You get some very useful data from this method that 3 shot groups can't provide
  • scope adjustment based on 10 shot group center (the more the better when the rifle is inaccurate)
  • an actual way to evaluate accuracy based on intended target size
  • some sort of actual confidence level that the large 10 shot group you are staring at can be directed to the intended target
  • in this case an accurate handload in an inaccurate rifle for only 20 shots. Especially important in a rifle where every shot brings it closer self destruction!
  • With a chronograph (I don't have one) you have all the information you need to get your zero angle in 4DOF.
I will be using this method of load development for accurate as well as inaccurate rifles going forward.
When I’m developing loads I shoot 3 shot groups and then focus on the best groups. Too many times I’ve loaded 10 or 12 cast bullet loads only to shoot a terrible 3 shot group and then bring the rest home and pull the bullets. Hate wasting the components on garbage loads…. My thought process is that if 3 shots are making a terrible group, more shots isn’t going to prove anything. Had all intentions of loading at the shooting bench but found out that wind really makes a beam scale bounce around so I gave up on that.

More recently with the 300WSM I’m having to pull a bunch of Hornady Interbonds and Hornady SST’s. This load has always grouped about 5/8’s consistently but with a very annoying slight hang fire. Really slight, not flint lock delay, but I can hear the hammer hit. H414 and CCI LRM’s. I’ve always “overlooked” this because it was accurate and really forced me to concentrate and not flinch.

I got some Winchester LRM’s last year because a number of guys said I wanted the hottest primer for a cast bullet load I was working on for the 308. They are hotter, 188fps average (Federal LRM’s were 174 average faster) than the CCI LRM’s in this particular load. so I knew I needed to try them in the 300. I loaded 3 rounds with 3 different 165gr bullets and the same powder charge I used before. I also took 3 of the SST loads with CCI LRM’s and one of these rounds had a very noticeable click boom. None of the 9 rounds with Winchester primers did that. It convinced me enough to break down all the loads I have and replace the primers with Winchester LRM’s. That and the Speer 165gr Spitzer BT went into a .3” group so I really want to test that bullet some more…
 
I agree with you on the IMR 4350 being a poor choice. Going forward I will be considering IMR 4895, BL-C(2), and H4895. I have these powders and they are more suited for semi auto rifles.
hey SD guy, I appreciate your comments. I was curious how I ended up with the imr 4350 load so I went back to my notes where I worked this load up a couple of years ago, and sure enough I had incorrectly labeled the ammo box with imr 4350, but the actual load was 49 grains of imr 4895. Thank goodness I didn't load up more of these based on my box label as you pointed out you should never download with 4350.
 
hey SD guy, I appreciate your comments. I was curious how I ended up with the imr 4350 load so I went back to my notes where I worked this load up a couple of years ago, and sure enough I had incorrectly labeled the ammo box with imr 4350, but the actual load was 49 grains of imr 4895. Thank goodness I didn't load up more of these based on my box label as you pointed out you should never download with 4350.
Curious minds were wanting to know. Thank you for sharing the Paul Harvey punch line. Now we know the rest of the story.
 
I have a strap on recoil pad specifically for my Browning A-bolt 300 WSM. Lightweight with a red rubber anti slip butt plate that does nothing to soak up recoil. After 6 shots or so, my vision starts getting blurry so I haven’t shot this rifle much since that started happening. A few weeks ago I took it out with 3 different bullets to test with Winchester LRM’s and H414. Shot it 12 times with the pad and could still see clearly when I was done. I’ve never used a lead sled but have a buddy that shoots everything in his. To each their own.
For that rifle, my very first move would be to have the best pad available fitted to the stock, then I would consider a muzzle brake. For range work with kickers, I use a strap on recoil pad, magnum model. It does wonders. I have a hard and fast rule against shooting rifles in a configuration that hurts.
 
This is one of the most common mistakes I often see at the range, and I spend a lot of time at the range. I have assisted several hunters preparing for expensive big game hunts out West and Canada.

The lead sled can damage a scope especially if loaded with heavy bags. I have seen it happen several times. If nothing else, it places a lot of stress on the scope and the stress is proportional to the recoil. But besides that, it gives an inaccurate POI compared to a typical hunting shooting position.

Developing a load and sighting in a big game hunting rifle is a fairly straight forward proposition. However, I consider it two different activities.

For load development you want to eliminate as much human error as possible but also have the rifle react in a normal shooting mode. Conventional front and rear rests accomplish this effectively. The best I have ever used in the Cadwell Tack Drive front bag with an owl ear rear rest. You don't need bench rest accuracy for a big game hunting load. The terminal performance of the bullet and the hunter's field shooting skills are critically important, not the group size within reason. If shooting 250 yards and under, a 1 1/2" to 2" repeatable group is more than adequate.

Once you have an adequate load, you should perform a final sight in the matter in which the rifle will be used in the field. This means for most hunters, holding the forearm of the rifle to replicate the free recoil in a hunting position. While held, you can rest the forearm on a sandbag but do not use a rear rest. Sighing in this way will give you a sight in representative of a hunting hold. As long as you can place all shots in the vital area at the maximum distance you anticipate shooting, you are good to go. This manner of shooting will reveal the true capability of the system (rifle/load/shooter).

A recoil shoulder pad is an effective tool to reduce flinching which will distort any meaning full data gathered at the range. When used with a heavy hunting coat, it dampens the recoil considerably. However, do not make the mistake of trying to shoot too many heavy recoiling rounds in one range session.
 
For that rifle, my very first move would be to have the best pad available fitted to the stock, then I would consider a muzzle brake. For range work with kickers, I use a strap on recoil pad, magnum model. It does wonders. I have a hard and fast rule against shooting rifles in a configuration that hurts.

So I wrestle with this one. we think of recoil as a punishing kick. Shouldn't we also think of muzzle blast as a punishing blast on our system as well.

With this in mind, might a silencer do better than a muzzle brake? Do some silencers do better than others in terms of reducing recoil & muzzle jump?
 
So I wrestle with this one. we think of recoil as a punishing kick. Shouldn't we also think of muzzle blast as a punishing blast on our system as well.

With this in mind, might a silencer do better than a muzzle brake? Do some silencers do better than others in terms of reducing recoil & muzzle jump?
Absolutely. My problem is where I live, California. If I lived in a state where silencers were legal, I would have one or more.
 
For that rifle, my very first move would be to have the best pad available fitted to the stock, then I would consider a muzzle brake. For range work with kickers, I use a strap on recoil pad, magnum model. It does wonders. I have a hard and fast rule against shooting rifles in a configuration that hurts.
Yeah, I’ve thought about and looked at them before but really don’t shoot it enough to make me do it. I just live with it. A slip on would make the most sense. I dislike a muzzle brake more than recoil...
 
This is one of the most common mistakes I often see at the range, and I spend a lot of time at the range. I have assisted several hunters preparing for expensive big game hunts out West and Canada.

The lead sled can damage a scope especially if loaded with heavy bags. I have seen it happen several times. If nothing else, it places a lot of stress on the scope and the stress is proportional to the recoil. But besides that, it gives an inaccurate POI compared to a typical hunting shooting position.

Developing a load and sighting in a big game hunting rifle is a fairly straight forward proposition. However, I consider it two different activities.

For load development you want to eliminate as much human error as possible but also have the rifle react in a normal shooting mode. Conventional front and rear rests accomplish this effectively. The best I have ever used in the Cadwell Tack Drive front bag with an owl ear rear rest. You don't need bench rest accuracy for a big game hunting load. The terminal performance of the bullet and the hunter's field shooting skills are critically important, not the group size within reason. If shooting 250 yards and under, a 1 1/2" to 2" repeatable group is more than adequate.

Once you have an adequate load, you should perform a final sight in the matter in which the rifle will be used in the field. This means for most hunters, holding the forearm of the rifle to replicate the free recoil in a hunting position. While held, you can rest the forearm on a sandbag but do not use a rear rest. Sighing in this way will give you a sight in representative of a hunting hold. As long as you can place all shots in the vital area at the maximum distance you anticipate shooting, you are good to go. This manner of shooting will reveal the true capability of the system (rifle/load/shooter).

A recoil shoulder pad is an effective tool to reduce flinching which will distort any meaning full data gathered at the range. When used with a heavy hunting coat, it dampens the recoil considerably. However, do not make the mistake of trying to shoot too many heavy recoiling rounds in one range session.
Good advice and good recoil management is imperative when at the bench with a hunting weight rifle.

Pops instistance to use 180gr in his 308 wrecked my precision shooting for decades until a 223 taught me how to shoot again as we only used 22's growing up.
Knowing a larger centerfire boots we are inclined to hold it too firmly at the bench and have our bodies too rigid while trying to hold a good POA.
There's a couple things the hunter can do at the bench to make the experience pleasurable and not an ordeal.
Good rests are paramount to produce good groups.
A few layers of just toweling on the shoulder will remove all the hurt and vastly assist in gaining confidence in a hunter weight rifle.
As you mention...holding the forend not only replicates field work but also helps better manage the recoil.
My best groups are always holding the forend with hand atop of the front bag.
YMMV

If we get to shoot enough at the bench, say in drawn out load development, the body becomes better accustomed to recoil as it enters a more relaxed state, that apparent (felt) recoil become less of a concern and padding can be dispensed with.....believe it or not.

An elderly and experienced hunter, a slight wiry man has rifles to the big 7mm's and it always confused me why he didn't have problems with recoil.
After asking, he said he once did and searched for a solution....which was to shoot and shoot and shoot !

Sorta backs up my findings of the need to be relaxed at the bench.......
 
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3 shot group will come no where close to telling the full story, though if the 3 shot group stinks, it is not going to get any better. Great place to start, I agree.
Right on.! I had a 742 back in the day and it was a bitch to load for. Loading single shot that thing would shoot 1 moa of better most of the time. Insert the loaded mag and it was all over the place.
 
Right on.! I had a 742 back in the day and it was a bitch to load for. Loading single shot that thing would shoot 1 moa of better most of the time. Insert the loaded mag and it was all over the place.

Had one of those as well, in .30-06. Got it for hunting in areas where 150yds was a *long* shot, and pretty much any shot was going to be a quick, almost snap shot. 'Precision' was not anywhere in it's job description - as long as it could hold minute-of-paper-plate @ 100yds, it was more than 'accurate' enough for the task.
 
Had one of those as well, in .30-06. Got it for hunting in areas where 150yds was a *long* shot, and pretty much any shot was going to be a quick, almost snap shot. 'Precision' was not anywhere in it's job description - as long as it could hold minute-of-paper-plate @ 100yds, it was more than 'accurate' enough for the task.
I sold mine 50 years ago an bought a Ruger 77.
 
Never damaged a scope on a lead sled. I've heard of it but never had it happen. Not even hundreds of rounds of 9.3x62. I have had to shoot more using one since my shoulder has been giving me trouble.
Then you haven’t seen enough people shoot off sleds in your life. I personally watched two guys ruin scopes (one was a Burris and the other was a weaver) off a lead sled in the past two seasons. I’d suggest that if you insist on shooting off a lead sled, just use it for the rest itself, and don’t add any weight to the sled to restrict recoil.
Dave
 

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