Maybe a dumb question…..

[762willdo]

I am an F class shooter usually but my local club has started a 22LR 25yd benchrest match so I bought a volquartsen and have started practicing, I bought 3 bricks of ammo 1)Eley tenex 2) Lapua Midas+ 3) Lapua center-X.
shooting them today the tenex was first and printed a group of 5 slightly small then a soup can lid
the Lapua Midas was second and printed a horizontal sting of slightly overlapping 5 holes 1/2” below the X
the Lapua center X was last and put 5 into a .30cal hole maybe even smaller
so my dumb question is, is this normal for the .22lr to see such discrepancies between types of ammo?

 

[moondog]

Not at 25 yards

 

[chkunz]

I am not sure if you have enough data to draw a meaningful conclusion. Have you ever delt with statistics, probabilities, etc.?

 

[CJ6]

If shot back to back (without cleaning) some brands don't play well together. I normally use Eley Match BB. A friend gave me some Geco red box too try. Without cleaning it took 35 rounds for it to settle down (it went from 8"patterns to 1.35 ish for 4 5 shot groups) at 100 yds.

 

[chkunz]

If shot back to back (without cleaning) some brands don't play well together. I normally use Eley Match BB. A friend gave me some Geco red box too try. Without cleaning it took 35 rounds for it to settle down (it went from 8"patterns to 1.35 ish for 4 5 shot groups) at 100 yds.

All true, but do you think he has enough data to draw meaningful conclusions?

 

[dutch14]

I agree with both of the above "not enough data", no fouling warmup rounds when switching ammos.

 

[762willdo]

I apologize I fired 5 rounds between batches, is that not enough for the 22lr it works for me on my 6 dasher and my .308…
rest assured I will be practicing more with each ammo type

 

[1Merlin]

Might not be enough for a statistical conclusion but if I shot a soup can lid group at 25 I would jump straight to the conclusion that something is severely fucked up. That just ain't right.

 

[CJ6]

All true, but do you think he has enough data to draw meaningful conclusions?

No.

 

[CJ6]

I apologize I fired 5 rounds between batches, is that not enough for the 22lr it works for me on my 6 dasher and my .308…
rest assured I will be practicing more with each ammo type

Centerfire is not rimfire. The various lubes on rimfire make a big difference.

 

[Bill K]

Should not be that much at 25 yrd. I would clean the bore very good between each brand of ammo and try again and see what that shows you between each brand.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Can I assume that the rifle is a semi-auto? If it is, I would put a couple of hundred rounds through it, purely to ensure the action beds in. It may be that the tolerance of ammo sizes/lengths etc are preventing the correct chambering of some ammo. It can also be that some ammo doesn't move the bolt back so far, resulting in less chambering force. Watch where the empty cases land. Also check the amount of lube on the cases - even in a bolt gun, I clean the lube off ammo just prior to shooting.

 

[doclu60]

Also check the amount of lube on the cases - even in a bolt gun, I clean the lube off ammo just prior to shooting.

Well, I see you are from New Zealand, but I will tell you this......most RF sanctioning bodies in the US of A will disqualify you for tampering with the bullet lube. Also, that lube is there for a reason, especially with high grade ammo the op has listed. There is lots to learn about lot testing high grade match ammo, and most of the information in thread (not all) has missed the mark. Your information about removing the lube is absolutely ridicules! To the OP, do NOT do what this guy suggests. His post is also riddled with other thoughts I seriously doubt, and I am a guy that came to sanctioned shooting after shooting high end custom semi-autos.

762willdo, if you want advice from an experienced competition RF shooter and lot tester, I will happily respond to your PM. I test close to a hundred lots a year, or more. While I shoot bolt rifles now, I have experience shooting high grade semi-autos as well, if that is what your Volquartsen is. They also make a toggle bolt action that kind of replicates the actions that are shot in International Biathlon competition.

Scott

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Well, I see you are from New Zealand, but I will tell you this......most RF sanctioning bodies in the US of A will disqualify you for tampering with the bullet lube. Also, that lube is there for a reason, especially with high grade ammo the op has listed. There is lots to learn about lot testing high grade match ammo, and most of the information in thread (not all) has missed the mark. Your information about removing the lube is absolutely ridicules! To the OP, do NOT do what this guy suggests. His post is also riddled with other thoughts I seriously doubt, and I am a guy that came to sanctioned shooting after shooting high end custom semi-autos.

762willdo, if you want advice from an experienced competition RF shooter and lot tester, I will happily respond to your PM. I test close to a hundred lots a year, or more. While I shoot bolt rifles now, I have experience shooting high grade semi-autos as well, if that is what your Volquartsen is. They also make a toggle bolt action that kind of replicates the actions that are shot in International Biathlon competition.

Scott

Scott, I'm sure that you have a lot of experience. I have seen and used lots of Tenex and RWS covered in a waxy lube, so thick as to make it unusable. It may be that this is caused by long periods of transport on the way south. So my habit of removing lube is due to bad experiences. Lapua/SK not so much. And yes, I have won competitions with a custom built 10/22, before all the newer after market ones were available. My current RF certainly does not show the variation in ammo at 25 yds as the OP - and it's a factory bolt action rifle.

 

[doclu60]

Scott, I'm sure that you have a lot of experience. I have seen and used lots of Tenex and RWS covered in a waxy lube, so thick as to make it unusable. It may be that this is caused by long periods of transport on the way south. So my habit of removing lube is due to bad experiences. Lapua/SK not so much. And yes, I have won competitions with a custom built 10/22, before all the newer after market ones were available. My current RF certainly does not show the variation in ammo at 25 yds as the OP - and it's a factory bolt action rifle.

Well, your response raises even more questions as to your experience. RWS does not use a 'waxy lube' on their high end RF ammo. Hum?.....are you sure about your comments on this? RWS on their high end ammo uses petroleum distillate lube, as does Lapua. Eley uses beeswax/tallow, which is waxy. High end Lapua and RWS is oily slippery, Eley is waxy. You guys in NZ get something different?......I highly doubt it!! You also completely ignored my my comment about that lube is there for a reason, even though you were quite happy to post to the forum you wipe it off! Another....Hum? Do you not know why the lube is there in the first place?

Put your keyboard down and learn something about what you think you know, but don't, before posting here where several posters here know what they are talking about, including me. You, and many others, explain why lots of very experienced RFBR shooters don't post much on forums. Lots of 'opinions' of why we don't know what we are talking about.....including you.

Scott

BTW: my offer to help the OP privately still stands.

 

[1911nut]

Well, your response raises even more questions as to your experience. RWS does not use a 'waxy lube' on their high end RF ammo. Hum?.....are you sure about your comments on this? RWS on their high end ammo uses petroleum distillate lube, as does Lapua. Eley uses beeswax/tallow, which is waxy. High end Lapua and RWS is oily slippery, Eley is waxy. You guys in NZ get something different?......I highly doubt it!! You also completely ignored my my comment about that lube is there for a reason, even though you were quite happy to post to the forum you wipe it off! Another....Hum? Do you not know why the lube is there in the first place?

Put your keyboard down and learn something about what you think you know, but don't, before posting here where several posters here know what they are talking about, including me. You, and many others, explain why lots of very experienced RFBR shooters don't post much on forums. Lots of 'opinions' of why we don't know what we are talking about.....including you.

Scott

BTW: my offer to help the OP privately still stands.

It sounds like what he’s doing is working for NZ_Fclass.

100 lots a year! Wow. You’re too expert for this thread.

This is the weird part:

“Put your keyboard down and learn something about what you think you know, but don't, before posting here where several posters here know what they are talking about, including me. You, and many others, explain why lots of very experienced RFBR shooters don't post much on forums. Lots of 'opinions' of why we don't know what we are talking about.....including you.”

What the hell did he post to deserve that?

 

[doclu60]

It sounds like what he’s doing is working for NZ_Fclass.

100 lots a year! Wow. You’re too expert for this thread.

This is the weird part:

“Put your keyboard down and learn something about what you think you know, but don't, before posting here where several posters here know what they are talking about, including me. You, and many others, explain why lots of very experienced RFBR shooters don't post much on forums. Lots of 'opinions' of why we don't know what we are talking about.....including you.”

What the hell did he post to deserve that?

You're correct, I went off the deep end there. The fact remains that so many people who post on forums have opinions about things, but don't have what I would call real world knowledge of the facts. Bullet lube is one of those 'opinions' that lots of people don't get right. NZ_Fclass really struck a nerve with me suggesting to a guy that wanted some help that wiping off the lube was a 'good thing'. Sorry, but a bunch of really well accomplished RFBR shooters will argue that all day long. BTW: in certain circles, testing 100 lots in a year is not that uncommon, when we had ammo to test. 2-3 shooters going in together buying test lots could easily do that. Those days are gone for now, until supply chain and production can catch up with the huge demand for premium .22lr target ammo.

I got out of line in post #15, so I'll take ownership of that and apologize for my behavior. I will not apologize for my experience and the facts I have learned after traveling the country almost every weekend pursuing big time sanctioned RFBR matches over the last few years though. I'll just keep it to myself from now on.

 

[Reddog58]

Looks like some people are a little thin skinned on here , I agree with Scott lube is put on for a reason and it sounds like 762willdo shot the first five rounds of ten x on a cold/not run in barrel . I've got rifles that take 5 to 10 rounds to warm up , but I'm fairly new to rimfire so take it for what it's worth .

 

[dutch14]

I'll agree with moondog not at 25 yds. I'll also agree with several others 1-5 shot group isn't enough data to determine anything. I shoot 28-5 shot groups every weekend and still get surprises. At 50 yds my 10-22 field rifle will average about 1" using a conversion rule of thumb, 1/2 the distance 1/3 the group size implys that you should be around a 30 cal hole measured center to center at 25 yds. At 25 yds wind will make little difference, but at 50 yds it will make some and at 100 yds you need some skill in reading the wind.