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Math, science, and barrel fluting

epc308 said:
The website is named Accurate Shooter, not Precision Shooter. I have no idea how or where it was 5-10 years ago, as I wasn't here.
Accuracy is in the mind of the individual shooter. For some it is stacking bullets, for some it is minute of beer can.
You are correct, there may be a wide range of experience, shooting style, and shooting ability in any given thread.
Sometimes that less experienced individual, without a preconceived notion, just might bring much needed insight to the subject.
I freely admit I don't know it all, but I like to read, and I like to learn. This forum helps with both.
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The name is Accurate Shooter but it is about precision. You do know the difference?

Take brass prep for instance. Benchrest shooters spend hours prepping their brass. Now the minute of beer can guy can try all these brass prep techniques and he will see no positive results. In fact the guy with what he calls a 1/2 moa rifle won't either.

Neck tension, super accurate powder charges a litany of reloading techniques are wasted time and money if you don't have the equipment to see the difference.

This is what happens when you mix all these different discipline in together. And many are argumentative. From their perspective they are right. It's getting like the AR forums or god forbid Snipershide.

I always say whatever works for you.
 
Read here what to do or not and why or not.
Sometimes it is conjecture or speculation and presented as an inquiry.
Most times it has hard facts to back the ideas.
After about a year of reading gets you well thru most of the dos and donts and whys.
My brother says you can be pretty sharp but ask the net. Someone has surely tried it already.
I have no input here, still listening.
Great stuff guys.
Thanks
 
Richard Coody said:
The name is Accurate Shooter but it is about precision. You do know the difference?

Take brass prep for instance. Benchrest shooters spend hours prepping their brass. Now the minute of beer can guy can try all these brass prep techniques and he will see no positive results. In fact the guy with what he calls a 1/2 moa rifle won't either.

Neck tension, super accurate powder charges a litany of reloading techniques are wasted time and money if you don't have the equipment to see the difference.

This is what happens when you mix all these different discipline in together. And many are argumentative. From their perspective they are right. It's getting like the AR forums or god forbid Snipershide.

I always say whatever works for you.
Click to expand...
Without putting up a fence to stop and screen folks before granting admission, we're all in this together.

What is at risk here is the same with any and all electronic communication- emails, text messages, social media posts may, can, and will be misinterpreted because you don't know the person, can't see their face, or don't hear the voice inflection.

Accuracy requires using a tape measure to build a house.

Precision requires a dial bore gauge to measure the part you just ID ground to a .0001 tolerance.

Yes, I've done both. I learned how to build a house and machine parts from knowledgeable folks.

I learn here as well.
 
Benchrest competitors spend a lot of time prepping brass because it's 6 PPC. They have to fire form and go through a pretty good ritual to get it to where they can reload it. It's just a different game with different requirements for success.
This is a good forum and it is good because it doesn't stagnate with a myopic approach to shooting. In the competitive shooting world there are many disciplines with different requirements for success.

Fluting comes up on occasion and some new or different information comes with it. The thing is if you like it you're going to do it and if you don't you won't. Ed Shilen said many years ago that if you want to flute a barrel flute a cut rifled barrel because his tests showed that when his button rifled barrels heat up they tend to open up groups in benchrest if they're fluted. He said that the fluting would release stresses in a button rifled barrel he couldn't get out with heat relieving. Some argue against that. I dunno, never tested it.

It's always interesting to listen to different views on the subject. I think a lot of barrels that shoot bad for an unknown reason suffer from the OD being different from the ID but I 'm not going to waste a lot of time trying to prove it. The Nazis didn't taper their M98 barrels. They were stepped and shot well by all accounts.

Barrel manufacture has come a long way over the years and mostly because of benchrest and other disciplines that sought better accuracy. That's a good thing.
 
INTJ said:
If you take perfectly straight fluted and non-fluted barrels of the same dimension, mount them horizontally and measure the droop at the muzzle, the fluted barrel would not sag as much since it is lighter while having the same shank.

However, if you put those same barrels under a bending moment, the non-fluted barrel would require more force for the same amount of bending movement as the fluted.
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Got it, thanks.
 
davidjoe said:
Nearly all of my barrels are MTU style tapered. Neither fluted nor bull. The resonating frequency must change along the entire length if the diameter does. [stuff deleted]
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The resonant frequency is a property of the barrel and not a cross sectional slice of it.
 
mensajd said:
The resonant frequency is a property of the barrel and not a cross sectional slice of it.
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My understanding is that if each point down the barrel’s length has a different resonance frequency, you minimize a standing wave traveling back and forth down the barrel.
 
powderbrake said:
The "increased stiffness" is compared to an unfluted round barrel of the same WEIGHT and length.

If you flute a barrel, it has less material, so it is less stiff than it was before fluting.
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I read an article attributed to AMTU that stated without flutes both cools faster and is also stiffer. I never belived the flute b.s., it defies common sense. I guess it has bling value but I was never a bling guy. I also can't see how that extra machining could do any thing to improve interior dimensions.
 
davidjoe said:
My understanding is that if each point down the barrel’s length has a different resonance frequency, you minimize a standing wave traveling back and forth down the barrel.
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No, that's not the case. Resonant frequency doesn't work that way. Halliday & Resnick physics textbook or Feynman lectures on physics can explain it more elegantly than I. Both are definitive works on undergraduate mechanics.
 
butchlambert said:
Yeah, made a rigid fixture to hold a barrel and positioned a .0001 indicator to check the flex.
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Damn dude, that's badass. Sometimes, when people hear the word "theory" they think, not really. Quantum mechanics theory has been around for about 100 years, but there have been no known counterexamples. Theories can be a good thing and theory does not equal "not really." Simple physics/mechanics should not fall into the category of not really. Including in rifle mechanics analysis.
 
mensajd said:
Damn dude, that's badass. Sometimes, when people hear the word "theory" they think, not really. Quantum mechanics theory has been around for about 100 years, but there have been no known counterexamples. Theories can be a good thing and theory does not equal "not really." Simple physics/mechanics should not fall into the category of not really.
Click to expand...


Sounds like my badass high school German physics teacher.
Time to water the tomatoes and cook.
 
butchlambert said:
Yeah, made a rigid fixture to hold a barrel and positioned a .0001 indicator to check the flex.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I did until I realized that Lilja's barrel weight calculator also has a stiffness calculator as a part of it.
It spits out a relative number so I use that number as one to compare with as I change barrel parameters. It's very interesting to play with. It surprises a lot of people to see that their fatter barrel isn't necessarily stiffer than a smaller diameter bbl of a little shorter length.
https://riflebarrels.com/computer-software/
 
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