Desert Sharpshooters Rifle Club - SMALLBORE UPCOMING EVENTS
Stay tuned for more events in 2025
www.desertsharpshooters.com
Match shooting
- Thread starter Doc22
- Start date
www.desertsharpshooters.com
@ljmontano Me and About 5 guys from our range are already making plans to show up to the wildcatDesert Sharpshooters Rifle Club - SMALLBORE UPCOMING EVENTS
Stay tuned for more events in 2025
Hi-NV Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
On shooting past 50yds. it is all about the ammo. my tuner on my Anschutz hasn't been touched in 7-8 years set at 90 and has remained there. IME a lot that shoots really good at 50 will also do good at 100, taking into account the conditions have more influence.
I posted this a few times before 50 shots with a lot this rifle never shot before at 100yds. tuner was not touched and hasn't for the 7-8 years. another lot same rifle back-to-back 5 shot groups at 100yds. the last was the online matches at SN with another lot.
if properly tuned and you find the ammo no need to touch the tuner going from 50 to 100
Lee
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doclu60
Silver $$ Contributor
I'm not a teacher, but I am a moderately decent/successful sanctioned RFBR competitor in two different sanctioning bodies. You asked in your opening post for opinions from "those of you that are serious about your benchrest competitive shooting". I, as well as others that know me, would consider me a very serious competitor in sanctioned RFBR. So, you got just what you asked for in my original post, which you have questioned.
If you feel you need to practice in the beginning of your RFBR career, have at it. Just make sure you find a mentor who REALLY knows what they are doing that can watch your flags when you are 'practicing' so you don't start 'practicing missing' with no idea why the bullet didn't go where you thought it should. There are lots of nuances to shooting good scores that a new guy just won't figure out on their own, I don't care how much you 'practice'. Kind of different, but kind of the same, when I shot skeet. I went to the club to practice back then and never got any better, until a fellow with way more success and skill in the game than I stood in back of me and spotted my shots. I was practicing missing but had no idea! My scores went up after being mentored. Skeet is something that takes practice to do well at because it is a physical game where you have to move your body to make the shot and building form is important. Practice helps that by reinforcing good form and muscle memory. RFBR is sitting on your butt and reading conditions then barely touching a 1oz trigger for the end results. Once your equipment is sorted out, it becomes a mental game. Also remember 'conditions' as defined in our game, are not just about wind. Fact is, there are conditions when shooting indoor venues as well, with no wind involved.
If you are practicing at one venue and get better at learning that venue, what happens when you shoot a different venue and the bullets have stopped going where they did at the venue you 'practiced' on? Did that ammo you expended practicing at another venue help at the new venue? Maybe a little, but not enough to be as consistent as where you practiced. I guarantee you there are some huge differences in how different venues shoot, and often, huge differences at the same venue depending on what bench you are shooting from. How do you practice for that? IME/IMO, match experience is a far better 'teacher' than practicing in RFBR. Shooting different venues, trying new things with your equipment (testing/tuning), building relationships with more talented/skilled competitors that will help you in the process.
Other than testing/tuning, the only 'practice' that I do is shooting sighters when I'm on the clock during a match. That is real time education in where the bullets are going to go that will affect my score right now. I will do that for every card as the conditions can change during the course of the match. For the most part, I have also quit shooting 'practice day' the day before a big match simply because I have no guarantee that what I learn is going to hold up for match day. Wasted ammo, and no education about what I need to know when shooting for score the next day if the conditions have changed, or I am shooting a different bench. In the top two unlimited classes, ARA and IR, you get 20 minutes to shoot the card. In IR50/50 Sporter and 3-Gun you get 30 minutes to complete the card. Plenty of time to shoot 'practice' using sighters that tell you exactly what is going on, at the time it matters most.
Scott Albury
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Hey Scott thanks for the reply, let me state that i am inquisitive by nature and I respect others opinions. First let me say I have my opinions on "practice" so I am not asking your permission or blessing to go practice. What I am asking is clarification on your rationale.
You presented some eloquent points, I had not really thought about. Practice on friday does not guarantee any learning for saturday. That's a great point.
I think some people often confuse asking questions as a challenge, as a lifelong learner I ask questions for the purpose of learning and growing. My mantra for life is don't just tell me to do something, tell me why I should do something.
As of now I only practice at one range because its local but I like the idea of shooting at other ranges, to once again learn the nuances of shooting. But once again thanks for learning me sumthin new.
TRSR8
Silver $$ Contributor
I would tell you, as somebody shooting RFBR from the beginning, for somebody new to match shooting practice will help with a couple caveats.
Practice in wind. The biggest skill needed is dealing with, often, less than ideal condition. Also, unfortunately, you should practice with the same ammo you plan to shoot…..not an inexpensive proposition, so as much as your wallet allows.some of the very, very best shoot every day, weather permitting.
if you do this you get instinctive as to handling wind.Shooting with ammo that cannot win, IMHO, is a false premise.
All this if you’re an infrequent match shooter.
A few years back we were shooting 3 weeks a month so skills were kept fairly sharp, that was a fair bit of shooting over quite a few years.
Practice in wind. The biggest skill needed is dealing with, often, less than ideal condition. Also, unfortunately, you should practice with the same ammo you plan to shoot…..not an inexpensive proposition, so as much as your wallet allows.some of the very, very best shoot every day, weather permitting.
if you do this you get instinctive as to handling wind.Shooting with ammo that cannot win, IMHO, is a false premise.
All this if you’re an infrequent match shooter.
A few years back we were shooting 3 weeks a month so skills were kept fairly sharp, that was a fair bit of shooting over quite a few years.
doclu60
Silver $$ Contributor
One, I never thought you were asking my permission or blessing. Where the heck did that come from? You asked for opinions from people from a certain group that I belong to. I answered twice. If you don't want experienced opinions from other shooters, don't post on a rifle forum and ask for them! Rely on your 'opinions' about something you obviously don't know much about, and file it in your 'mantra of life'!
Best of luck to you.........Scott
doclu60
Silver $$ Contributor
TRSR8,
I get what you're saying, and I did practice when I was new, but not for very long. The rest of the range time was testing/tuning as I previously stated. I told the LA guy to have at it, but to get a mentor. I did not have that stand behind me mentor when I first started and did ask questions on forums. I got some replies from guys, you were one of them, that were much more severe than what I posted here to LA guy! I also paid dearly the price of a longer learning curve because I did not have that mentor at the range and I also had 'opinions' about something I didn't have the experience to make an 'opinion' about. I learned quickly that if you ask questions of the experienced and challenge them, that resource can disappear quickly. I also explained to LA guy after a certain point, practice is a waste of ammo and one should focus on other things. Your statement about some of the best shoot every day I am certain is true, but as you know, I do shoot with some of the best.......a lot. In 2022 I had about 250-260 registered cards between IR, ARA, and PSL. That doesn't include ARA national cards that do not go into your profile. You shoot with some of the best almost every weekend when you run that hard. In 2023 that card count went down because I was running two clubs instead of one. More, than less, all tell me the same thing I posted in rebuttal to LA guy's question directly to me. They do not practice shooting cards but do go to the bench for testing/tuning. Just like me.
I will also chip in on your comment about shooting 3 weekends a month and not needing practice. I normally shoot sanctioned RFBR 4 weekends a month during the outdoor season, but that is going to slow down a bit for next year. I will most likely trim out some ARA matches (probably a lot) to focus on defending my 2023 National Championship in IR50/50 3-Gun. As you know, I have been a Match Director at two different clubs, one IR and one ARA, this past season. For 2024 the decision was made, long before the 2023 season was close to being over, to change the ARA club over to IR50/50 3-Gun for 2024. So, 4 IR matches a month are assured for me in 2024, and if dates line up between my club in Illinois and Voelker's club in Iowa like they have in the past, all 4 will only take up two weekends. That will leave 2 weekends open, as my Illinois State and North Central Regionals will be on the only 5th weekend of the summer. Who knows, I may end up in upstate NY for one of those weekends to shoot IR with you!
Always good to hear your perspective on things pertaining to RFBR. Hope you and yours have wonderful and safe holidays!
Stay safe........Scott
BTW: you may want to delete one of your posts........doubled up on that one!
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TRSR8
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks, and merry Christmas as well .
P.S. can't find a double, must be getting old.
P.P.S. Here is an example of routine practice.
Now CFBR is not the same, EXCEPT, one of the, if not the single biggest requirement is reading condition.
Tony Boyer, unquestionably the greatest of all time, shot virtually every day, pretty much.
Here is an example of why I mention it.
Years ago Canastota, N.Y. Had a couple IBS BR schools and Tony was an instructor. I watched him for a while where he had a rookie shooting groups and he would sit on opposite side of the bench and correct everything from gun handling, shooting pace, etc. as his guy shot groups., watching student and flags.
Over the course of a couple days, every time the newbie threw a shot out of the group, they’d look at Tony and he’s calmly tell them, without benefit of looking through any optic…..” that one wen low right”, that one went a bit high, all without fail. Usually the guy looked at him in amazement.
That there ability came from otherworldly practice, but practice, none the less.
P.S. can't find a double, must be getting old.
P.P.S. Here is an example of routine practice.
Now CFBR is not the same, EXCEPT, one of the, if not the single biggest requirement is reading condition.
Tony Boyer, unquestionably the greatest of all time, shot virtually every day, pretty much.
Here is an example of why I mention it.
Years ago Canastota, N.Y. Had a couple IBS BR schools and Tony was an instructor. I watched him for a while where he had a rookie shooting groups and he would sit on opposite side of the bench and correct everything from gun handling, shooting pace, etc. as his guy shot groups., watching student and flags.
Over the course of a couple days, every time the newbie threw a shot out of the group, they’d look at Tony and he’s calmly tell them, without benefit of looking through any optic…..” that one wen low right”, that one went a bit high, all without fail. Usually the guy looked at him in amazement.
That there ability came from otherworldly practice, but practice, none the less.
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Hey Scott, First of all I assume you are referring to me when you say LA Guy I have a name, you may refer to me as DocRimfire as my username suggests or you may refer to me as Damon. If we cannot get a modicum of respect then there is no reason to continue any conversation. Please reread my response. I respected all of your viewpoints and I even said they made sense to me and I was simply trying to understand your rationale. I went on to state that you gave me some insightful ways to view my practice time.
However the rest of your comment was uncalled for and unneccessary. I asked for experienced opinions and took note. You are correct I obviously dont know much about rimfire and benchrest, which is why I am asking questions. So since you put the ultimatum out there, I will politely return the same energy you are giving me, if you cant respect my opinions or comments and get butt hurt then dont reply to my thread. Very simple solution
Come on dude grow up, you are saying how qualified you are and I am sure you are and if that is the case encourage new comers to the sport, embrace their questions don't to be that guy.
I'm trying to not only learn but pay respect to shooters who came before me. However people need to be mindful of the way we speak to each other.
Practice in windy conditions check, Get a mentor to help guide me check, find different ranges to shoot at check. Shoot in matches and gain real world experience. I got it. All of that other energy ,,,,not me.
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Thanks TRSR8, I just recently ordered some wind flags and I have been doing allot of reading on wind. So the only thing I can do now is get out there and actually do it, I am not naive to the fact that this will take a while to master.
As far as the ammo im still at the stage where it is a double edged sword, I am trying different ammo to see what my gun likes and testing not only different manufacturers but different lot numbers as well. Its like a rabbit hole. My gun likes black box so I shoot mostly with that, however I just recently tried a few boxes of SK semiauto that my rifle likes as well but isnt that great at 100yards. So I will probably stick with the black box. Our range has matches once a month so I use the other 3 weeks to master my scope, figure out the intricacies of my new Sinclair rest, etc. Next month there is an ARA match about 2 hours from me that I will be heading up to. I dont expect to do great but its fun to me and for the most part I have met some really cool and great people on the range.
Doc22, I do practice some but when I do I'm usually by myself because I typically only practice on days that are more difficult. Nothing beats a actual match at gaining experience though. The mentor advice is solid also. If you feel like you don't have someone to ask you will meet people at matches that will help you. Its a lot to learn to be able to have success. You will be fine. Try to have fun.
Todd
Todd
Hi-NV Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Hey Scott,
Congratulations on the 3-gun national Championship I didn't know about this. awesome shooting!
Take care and stay safe,
Lee
dusterdave173
Silver $$ Contributor
We shoot indoors 50 yards--it is an old poultry house--so I figured--great--no wind no conditions to be a problem--man was I wrong! The tin roof gets hot--the ground inside is cold--you get an almost " Reverse" mirage--it is very weird looking through the 36x scope watching the air move in crazy ways--they have surveyors tape hanging from above and they move in a ghostly way at times.
It is far easier than outdoors for Sure as there is no forceful movement of any kind but you do observe very unusual visual effects.
It is far easier than outdoors for Sure as there is no forceful movement of any kind but you do observe very unusual visual effects.
Things that have worked for me. Practice as much as you can afford. I do agree with practicing with good ammo, but I also agree with practicing with your sub par ammo. Like Todd said practice with flags. The main thing is to shoot enough to learn your ammo, gun, and the conditions in the area you are shooting. I am fortunate to be able to shoot at home, but my home range does not have an ideal layout. I have learned it helps to practice with ammo that is less than Ideal especially in tough conditions, seems tough conditions will sort of mask your looser ammo, as long as you mentally prepare yourself for it to not be perfect.
"don't expect ammo that will only score a 2000 to do any better than that", watch your flags watch what happens to your shots on all different conditions, you will find conditions that your setup prefers versus others.
FWIW.... Unless you are testing ammo.......If you look outside trying to cherry pick perfect conditions to practice in you are not doing yourself any favors. If you look outside and think....hmmm that's kind of junky I'm not going to mess around with that. Go setup the flags and burn a box or 2 and I bet you will learn a whole lot.
"don't expect ammo that will only score a 2000 to do any better than that", watch your flags watch what happens to your shots on all different conditions, you will find conditions that your setup prefers versus others.
FWIW.... Unless you are testing ammo.......If you look outside trying to cherry pick perfect conditions to practice in you are not doing yourself any favors. If you look outside and think....hmmm that's kind of junky I'm not going to mess around with that. Go setup the flags and burn a box or 2 and I bet you will learn a whole lot.
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doclu60
Silver $$ Contributor
Thank you Lee. I appreciate your kind words. Hope the best for you and yours during the holiday season.
Take care my friend......Scott
doclu60
Silver $$ Contributor
TRSR8,
Your post was doubled yesterday, but you're not getting old! This morning it was gone. Either admin caught it, or someone reported it, and admin took care of it. No big deal. Done it myself in the past.
Cropped your post but I am sending you a text about the rest of the content. I do value your opinion, as I think you well know, because you have helped me before we knew each other and have continued to do so since. No need to create more controversy between the new guy and myself over this here.
Best regards......Scott
TRSR8
Silver $$ Contributor
Naw, I think he knows you’re motivation is to be helpful and informative. Guess I put myself down for a DUH.
TRSR8
Silver $$ Contributor
The SINGLE best thing you can do is hit as many matches as you can. Watch and talk to any better shooters, most are very receptive.
Shooting in competition appreciably shortens the learning curve and remember, at this stage of the game it’s all about improving your skills and fun…..way too many guys get caught up with other BS way too early. Relax and shoot.
I’m stuck in NYS with rifles locked up until April.
.Lol, at this point everyone is better than me, but that is part of the fun of it. had a great day at the range today, got there got setup it was windy today so that was good, I had someone over my shoulder giving me advice so that was good. i tried prone today for this first time, it wasnt as hard as I heard it would be. I also shot my first ARA target today off the bench practiced with the good stuff. I think today all in all ws a great day at the range,The SINGLE best thing you can do is hit as many matches as you can. Watch and talk to any better shooters, most are very receptive.
Shooting in competition appreciably shortens the learning curve and remember, at this stage of the game it’s all about improving your skills and fun…..way too many guys get caught up with other BS way too early. Relax and shoot.
I’m stuck in NYS with rifles locked up until April.
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