MATCH BULLETS
- Thread starter Webster
- Start date
If that's true, then why is there no American maker of precision match grade rf ammo?
LESLEY
Banned
In rimfire ammo you get what you pay for. Bulk Federal for example is for plinking. The more you move up the chain the better the ammo. It comes down to what you want the ammo to do. For me its having fun and winning. SK ammo for the kids and trigger time. Center x and Midas for score. There is no right or wrong 22 ammo. Shoot what works for your use
1Merlin
Silver $$ Contributor
As far as I know only 3 manufactures are in the USA. Armscor, Federal and CCI. Armscor is fairly low line stuff. CCI has several that I would consider high end and Federal has UM which is excellent in most of my rifles... I shoot CenterX and CCI Standard. The CCI Standard is what convinces me that they are deliberately messing up their ammo as it will shoot a .3 group and then throw on out by a half inch. 9 in the strike zone then throw one at your head is not an accident....
As far as I know only 3 manufactures are in the USA. Armscor, Federal and CCI. Armscor is fairly low line stuff. CCI has several that I would consider high end and Federal has UM which is excellent in most of my rifles... I shoot CenterX and CCI Standard. The CCI Standard is what convinces me that they are deliberately messing up their ammo as it will shoot a .3 group and then throw on out by a half inch. 9 in the strike zone then throw one at your head is not an accident....
It's my understanding that Armscor is actually manufactured in the Philippines, so not a US manufacturer . . . huh???
While there was a time when Federal UM was made in the US, in recent years Federal's UM's were manufactured overseas by RWS and was essentially RWS R50 relabeled. Now Federal discontinued UM's all together.
CCI Green Tag is supposed to be high end match grade, but I've found it to be very disappointing and many others besides myself have also reported not getting results with GT as well as the CCI SV's.
Bullets.
Match grade 22 lr bullets may be made with virgin alloys, containing lead & 2% antimony. A harder alloy bullet will not skid or slump on firing.
Lesser ammo uses scrap lead thats near pure soft lead and coated with an antimony based surface coating to resist leading.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303951615_Antimony_Coats_Many_22_Caliber_Bullets
Match grade 22 lr bullets may be made with virgin alloys, containing lead & 2% antimony. A harder alloy bullet will not skid or slump on firing.
Lesser ammo uses scrap lead thats near pure soft lead and coated with an antimony based surface coating to resist leading.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303951615_Antimony_Coats_Many_22_Caliber_Bullets
I wish I had the original article to post. A simple explanation is that even in 99.5% purity lead you have about .3-.35% Antimony and .15-.2% arsenic. These elements naturally occur in Pb ore. The antimony and arsenic oxidize on the surface there is now a deficiency of these elements in the matrix. Since Pb has such a low melting temp the antimony and arsenic can migrate to the surface to fill the deficiency of the elements in the matrix near the surface. The oxide layer keeps growing until oxygen can no longer penetrate to the surface. I ran an electron microscope and EDS analysis for 17 years. At work we had a problem with testing fluids against lead for corrosion. The test went out of control. We verified the oxide layer and measured the oxide thickness by Auger or XPS, I forget which. Someone else in my dept. ran the XPS and Auger. EDS will detect these layers but it is not accurate and it cannot measure film thickness.
My "guess" would be that, our " American" High Speed loading machines, of Today, DON'T weigh, the Powder very consistently, coupled with, POOR lead quality as noted, above ! The Manufacturers don't care, anymore, as they are, busy, trying to "fill the Bill" for UNDER $20 a Box, Bulk ammo for, the Plinker crowd.
I have a few boxes of 1990- 1991 ( a mere, 30 years, ago ! ) .22 Win. Super X that, are copper plated, 40 gr. that go, 1180 - 1200 FPS (actual, Chrno'd ) and I have shot the BEST groups so far, in my Ruger 10-22, 22" SS with, them. So, I KNOW they "could" build good Chit, IF they wanted to ! Since, I know that, most American stuff, has "Flyers", as stated by 1Merlin and others, I'm going to start using, Lap SK Std Plus @ $5 per 50 and SK Long Range @ $8. IF, I have to for any, serious shooting and at,.. Cottontail Rabbits !
I have a few boxes of 1990- 1991 ( a mere, 30 years, ago ! ) .22 Win. Super X that, are copper plated, 40 gr. that go, 1180 - 1200 FPS (actual, Chrno'd ) and I have shot the BEST groups so far, in my Ruger 10-22, 22" SS with, them. So, I KNOW they "could" build good Chit, IF they wanted to ! Since, I know that, most American stuff, has "Flyers", as stated by 1Merlin and others, I'm going to start using, Lap SK Std Plus @ $5 per 50 and SK Long Range @ $8. IF, I have to for any, serious shooting and at,.. Cottontail Rabbits !
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Agree with THIS as, in recent testing of Bulk 550 Rds of Fed 36 gr HP's vs Fed. Auto Match 40 gr lead ( slower, tho ! ) there is a huge difference in Group sizes !
The Auto Match costs, MORE, per Round but shoots, way BETTER @ $17.00 per 325 at Walmart vs $19.00 for the Fed Copper, 36 grain 550 Bulk.
I realize we are discussing "Match Grade" ammo here, but wanted to point out just how correct, THIS statement,.. is ! IF you, WANT "serious accuracy", you got to go, out of our Country to, Higher Grade, Eley or, Lapua ammo !
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Eley Tenex is 37 cents a round. https://eley.co.uk/how-eley-achieve-olympic-accuracy-with-its-22lr-ammunition/
Then a very accurate rifle is needed.
All more then i want to spend for a 22lr.
https://eley.co.uk/how-eley-achieve-olympic-accuracy-with-its-22lr-ammunition/Then a very accurate rifle is needed.
All more then i want to spend for a 22lr.
separating it seems to make a difference on the target too.. at least it did in my view
What means of separation do you use, rim thickness, OAL, weight ????? I haven't done much with 22lr match ammo, my old custom barreled 10-22 used to like Wolf match. It was almost cheap and shoot the best out of that rifle. A friend has it now and I wish I had it back. Of all the domestics Federal auto match shoots the best for me. I was shooting my CZs next to a guy with a VOODOO a few months back and his best groups, even shooting Eley and Lapua were with federal auto match.
Rimfire match ammunition is not manufactured here in the US due to ROI - Return on Investment.
There is just not enough of a demand in the US for premium accuracy grade ammunition equivalent to RWS R50, Eley Tenex and Lapua Midas+. As noted by many, the significant market is not punching paper - they are minute of squirrel and pray-n-spray consumers that want and purchase cheap .22 ammo and are happy that it goes "bang". Thus, if you are a manufacturer, its got to be cheap - which does not lend itself to accuracy.
The following is a link to an article about to what levels it takes to make match rimfire ammunition. Face it, until match ammunition market in the US rises to 20-25% of consumption, its not going to happen as companies are not going to invest the time and funds to make specific production lines that can turn out ammunition worthy of being called "match" quality.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_eley_101405/99277
Return on Investment. Companies don't want to invest the millions of dollars in a new product and have a poor ROI. They want to recoup those costs in 1-2 years if possible, maximum maybe 3-4 if they have long term vision. None of the current US manufacturers are going to do this if they can make their margins making the same mediocre (at best) ammo on existing low tolerance production lines.
I am sorry, but the statement "The CCI Standard is what convinces me that they are deliberately messing up their ammo as it will shoot a .3 group and then throw on out by a half inch." made me laugh.
Out loud.
CCI standard is just that....standard. It performs well for many rifles and is a middle of the road compromise of cost vs accuracy. If you got a .3 group - great. But to expect that all the time from lot to lot is less than realistic vs the price point. Even Eley, RWS and Lapua performance from lot to lot can vary significantly in the same rifle. (As a smallbore competition for over 35+ years of using in excess of 400k+ rounds of match grade ammunition, I cannot begin to understate the amount of variations you can see between lots of even premium grades.)
With the increased popularity of PRS, ELR and some other smallbore events, there may be an opportunity in the future for a US based manufacturer but I would not count on it for at lest 10+ years at best. It would be easier, like Federal did, to outsource and rebrand.
Regards,
ken
ASSA Secretary/Treasurer
There is just not enough of a demand in the US for premium accuracy grade ammunition equivalent to RWS R50, Eley Tenex and Lapua Midas+. As noted by many, the significant market is not punching paper - they are minute of squirrel and pray-n-spray consumers that want and purchase cheap .22 ammo and are happy that it goes "bang". Thus, if you are a manufacturer, its got to be cheap - which does not lend itself to accuracy.
The following is a link to an article about to what levels it takes to make match rimfire ammunition. Face it, until match ammunition market in the US rises to 20-25% of consumption, its not going to happen as companies are not going to invest the time and funds to make specific production lines that can turn out ammunition worthy of being called "match" quality.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_eley_101405/99277
Return on Investment. Companies don't want to invest the millions of dollars in a new product and have a poor ROI. They want to recoup those costs in 1-2 years if possible, maximum maybe 3-4 if they have long term vision. None of the current US manufacturers are going to do this if they can make their margins making the same mediocre (at best) ammo on existing low tolerance production lines.
I am sorry, but the statement "The CCI Standard is what convinces me that they are deliberately messing up their ammo as it will shoot a .3 group and then throw on out by a half inch." made me laugh.
Out loud.
CCI standard is just that....standard. It performs well for many rifles and is a middle of the road compromise of cost vs accuracy. If you got a .3 group - great. But to expect that all the time from lot to lot is less than realistic vs the price point. Even Eley, RWS and Lapua performance from lot to lot can vary significantly in the same rifle. (As a smallbore competition for over 35+ years of using in excess of 400k+ rounds of match grade ammunition, I cannot begin to understate the amount of variations you can see between lots of even premium grades.)
With the increased popularity of PRS, ELR and some other smallbore events, there may be an opportunity in the future for a US based manufacturer but I would not count on it for at lest 10+ years at best. It would be easier, like Federal did, to outsource and rebrand.
Regards,
ken
ASSA Secretary/Treasurer
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