match-barrel wear from copper-plated vs. lead round-nose bullets?

[Discoveror]

Since I couldn't find the answer, Searching, I thought I'd ask:

What are your thoughts on match-grade barrel wear rate, using (copper) plated bullets vs. plain lead round-nose bullets?

I ask because it seems (to me) like the cheap rounds are copper-plated (washed) vs. lead round-nose employed in most higher quality match rounds.

I'm, also, wondering about match-grade barrel wear-rate impact, using super-sonic .22 LR's vs. sub-sonic rounds?

My concern is NOT with the relative barrel fouling from copper-plated vs. lead bullets. I understand why copper-plating/washing is employed. What I haven't seen is discussion, regarding copper-plating wear on a match-grade barrel, especially from super-sonic bullets.

If you'd share your insights, I'd be grateful. Hopefully, others might benefit, as well?

thanks,

 

[DOGCAPPER]

If you are shooting copper plate/wash dont worry about wear.

 

[patriot]

Its unlikely anyone serious about accuracy has experience shooting supersonic or copper plated rounds in a match barrel. I would be worried the copper would react with the barrel metal just like it turned out moly coated bullets caused problems.

 

[rayjay]

What brand of match bbl is the OP using ?

 

[Discoveror]

Its unlikely anyone serious about accuracy has experience shooting supersonic or copper plated rounds in a match barrel. I would be worried the copper would react with the barrel metal just like it turned out moly coated bullets caused problems.

Indeed ... that's what got me wondering ... and why I posed the question.

A fair bit of Searching uncovered nothing remotely answering the question ... which amazed me. That encouraged me to hope that any experienced answer would help a wide variety of people ... since we encounter these round choices every time we shop, especially over the past few years when .22 LR choices have been scant on the shelves.

 

[Discoveror]

What brand of match bbl is the OP using ?

Fearing an accuracy diminution from slight (tens of a thousandth of an inch) changes in bore diameter, I have NOT put ANY (copper) plated rounds down a match barrel.

I'm asking in general (i.e. academically or conceptually) - without regard to any specific match barrel brand or model.

I presume that SOMEBODY knows the answer ... Otherwise, why would/do the major match-round manufacturers (e.g. Eley, RWS, Lapua et al) not plate ANY (that I recall) match rounds? ... or hyper-sonic rounds?

 

[patriot]

The second part is easy to answer, a bullet slowing down passing through the sound barrier is going to suffer. The old movies explained the buffeting. Also, drag increases with the square of the velocity, which means the wind is going to cause a lot more drift with a fast round. Match shooters know a 1040 FPS round is going to hold better in wind than a 1080 round. It is suspected the Eley EPS bullet has a lower BC than a around nose profile which would explain why some "feel" it does poorly in wind past 50 yards. Ever shoot a 22 magnum round in the wind? Terrible. The first part of the question goes to the ammo manufactures. They've spent a lot of time experimenting with lubricants. The Eley EDGE round is an example. If copper had an advantage they'd use it.

Mark

 

[Travelor]

Not to worry as some Olympic level barrels have gone over 100,000 rounds before replaced.

 

[Discoveror]

The second part is easy to answer, a bullet slowing down passing through the sound barrier is going to suffer. The old movies explained the buffeting. Also, drag increases with the square of the velocity, which means the wind is going to cause a lot more drift with a fast round. Match shooters know a 1040 FPS round is going to hold better in wind than a 1080 round. It is suspected the Eley EPS bullet has a lower BC than a around nose profile which would explain why some "feel" it does poorly in wind past 50 yards. Ever shoot a 22 magnum round in the wind? Terrible. The first part of the question goes to the ammo manufactures. They've spent a lot of time experimenting with lubricants. The Eley EDGE round is an example. If copper had an advantage they'd use it.

Mark

Thanks, Mark ... for the enlightenment - a Fun read.

I understand that various coatings (wax, copper plating/washing etc.) are used to lubricate as well as to inhibit fouling.

Though copper is said to be softer than steel, implying no harm (at least from brushing speeds <G> ), I wonder about the impact of copper on a precisely machined (to tens of one thousandth of an inch) steel bore, passing at high speeds (i.e. on a bullet) ... through a hand-lapped, match barrel?

 

[AckleymanII]

Not to worry as some Olympic level barrels have gone over 100,000 rounds before replaced.

I worked with the guy that built the Olympic 22 RF guns, 40x's, Hart barrels, reamer that engraved the bullet as the round was chambered.

For giggles and grins, we took one of the 40x CM barrels and installed it on a Ruger 10-22 and he used the same reamer. He had to very slightly hone the lead so the bullet was not engraved so deep. I put a good trigger on the rifle, and bedded it in a custom Walnut stock.

With CCI Green Tag ammo, the 10/22 would put 10 shots in a ragged hole at 80 yards. Now, this ruger 10/22 was used in the hay fields in N. Ca. slaughtering ground squirrels. After about 5000 rounds, the leade has grown to where the bullets are not slightly engraved anymore. The Glass compound in the priming mix is rough on 22 RF barrels. Now, the gun is no where near as accurate as it was when that barrel was new, and also when you shoot HV ammo, copper plated or not, lead does get in the barrel so a good cleaning every 250 rounds or so is in order.

The OP wanted to know the difference between copper and non plated bullets, I never heard of any discussion of this when these guys were developing the ammo that was shot in the Olympics which Federal bought the patient from which is close to the Federal Gold Metal Match ammo that we know today.

I did learn that a super tight throat and engraving the bullet was critical for accuracy from these guys. Lube on bullets, various priming compounds used, shape of the rim, and bullet design were where all the discussions were centered around. Just consider the wax on some of the RWS ammo and how you could design a chamber to get it to feed.

So, for super accuracy, have your barrel set back ever so often as the leade wears to where the bullet is engraved. Dave Kiff can help you immensely in this.

I am sure that 22 RF wear is a shock to many, and the wear on my 40x barrel to where the bullets are no longer engraving is normal wear with normal loss of accuracy associated with that wear.

I would guess that keeping your throat, "fresh" is more important that copper washed wear or plain lead wear", because the priming compound wear is the main culprit in eating up your throat. Your throat will wear a lot quicker than copper vs lead issue in the barrel, and whether lead or copper wears the throat maybe a more viable question. Either way, monitoring the depth of the engraving of the bullet in the throat is what will give you the smallest groups.

 

[Discoveror]

... keeping your throat, "fresh" is more important that copper washed wear or plain lead wear", because the priming compound wear is the main culprit in eating up your throat.

Now, this thread is getting to the Fun parts ! <G>

Indeed, I remember reading that throat wear from heat (consistent with your primer observation, above) contributes most to barrel accuracy deterioration. In addition to enhanced bullet wobbling when transitioning back to sub-sonic speeds, super-sonic bullets required more heat back at the throat - to get moving.

While pondering this stuff, I looked up the relative hardness of copper vs. lead. On the Mohs scratch relative hardness scale, copper is a few steps harder than lead.

 

[AckleymanII]

Now, this thread is getting to the Fun parts ! <G>

Indeed, I remember reading that throat wear from heat (consistent with your primer observation, above) contributes most to barrel accuracy deterioration. In addition to enhanced bullet wobbling when transitioning back to sub-sonic speeds, super-sonic bullets required more heat back at the throat - to get moving.

While pondering this stuff, I looked up the relative hardness of copper vs. lead. On the Mohs scratch relative hardness scale, copper is a few steps harder than lead.

I would guess, and it is only a guess, that after the bullet is fully engraved and started in the bore, that the relative hardness may be a very minor point. The erosive priming compound is a very serious issue as it contains glass.

After dealing with the Re chambered 40x and it's uncanny accuracy, we designed a 22 mag reamer to shoot jacketed HP from Winchester, kept the throat .0003 over bullet dia and started the leade angle right on the bullet. You can not even imagine the accuracy of a barrel chambered this way...shocking.

 

[patriot]

I would be more concerned about the copper setting up a reaction with the steel; not the abrasiveness. Add a little moisture and acid from the powder and you've built a battery (corrosion). I have one 1913 that I've cleaned after every outing. A friend has one that he cleaned occasionally. His has less than half as many rounds down the tube, but you can see the primer erosion at 6 o'clock with a bore scope. Mine looks new. From what I've read, Eley uses a higher percentage of primer to powder compared to Lapua and folks initially reported it wore their barrels out sooner.

 

[rayjay]

This whole thread is like asking for the experiences of people that have raced with 87 octane gas in their NHRA prostock motors.

You spend $300 + on a blank and $200 to $600 on having it fitted and then you are going to waste time and bbl life on trying out ammo that won't have a chance in hades of finishing anywhere but last ?? Nobody is that stupid.

 

[patriot]

The only stupid question is one not asked.

 

[SBS]

Shooters with match grade barrels are not going to be using copper plated high velocity ammo, period. So it's not amazing there is no information concerning barrel wear over a period of time with a considerable number of HV rounds. Who would such a study benefit? While copper plated HV ammo has been scarce for the plinker, match ammo HAS been available and HV ammo would not suffice anyway for the match shooter as rayjay points out.
The amount of rounds fired to cause considerable throat wear seem to vary considerably -- probably determined by ammo, cleaning regimen (as Mark pointed out) and barrel manufacturer. One of my prone .22 rifles had over 10,000 rds. through it last year when I shot a clean with a lot of X's. A Lilja barrel, nothing but Eley used, cleaned every match, and ammo still engraves. However, a bore scope shows a rougher bore (particularly at 6 oclock) than a CM Anschutz barrel that has over twice that many rounds down it, even though the Lilja started out looking very slick.

 

[Tim s]

I worked with the guy that built the Olympic 22 RF guns, 40x's, Hart barrels, reamer that engraved the bullet as the round was chambered.

For giggles and grins, we took one of the 40x CM barrels and installed it on a Ruger 10-22 and he used the same reamer. He had to very slightly hone the lead so the bullet was not engraved so deep. I put a good trigger on the rifle, and bedded it in a custom Walnut stock.

With CCI Green Tag ammo, the 10/22 would put 10 shots in a ragged hole at 80 yards. Now, this ruger 10/22 was used in the hay fields in N. Ca. slaughtering ground squirrels. After about 5000 rounds, the leade has grown to where the bullets are not slightly engraved anymore. The Glass compound in the priming mix is rough on 22 RF barrels. Now, the gun is no where near as accurate as it was when that barrel was new, and also when you shoot HV ammo, copper plated or not, lead does get in the barrel so a good cleaning every 250 rounds or so is in order.

The OP wanted to know the difference between copper and non plated bullets, I never heard of any discussion of this when these guys were developing the ammo that was shot in the Olympics which Federal bought the patient from which is close to the Federal Gold Metal Match ammo that we know today.

I did learn that a super tight throat and engraving the bullet was critical for accuracy from these guys. Lube on bullets, various priming compounds used, shape of the rim, and bullet design were where all the discussions were centered around. Just consider the wax on some of the RWS ammo and how you could design a chamber to get it to feed.

So, for super accuracy, have your barrel set back ever so often as the leade wears to where the bullet is engraved. Dave Kiff can help you immensely in this.

I am sure that 22 RF wear is a shock to many, and the wear on my 40x barrel to where the bullets are no longer engraving is normal wear with normal loss of accuracy associated with that wear.

I would guess that keeping your throat, "fresh" is more important that copper washed wear or plain lead wear", because the priming compound wear is the main culprit in eating up your throat. Your throat will wear a lot quicker than copper vs lead issue in the barrel, and whether lead or copper wears the throat maybe a more viable question. Either way, monitoring the depth of the engraving of the bullet in the throat is what will give you the smallest groups.

I have no idea where you got some of this stuff but a lot of it is plain wrong.
First, there is no such thing as a tight throat, per se. Leade angles vary, thats it.
.22 throats dob't wear out and nobody sets them back, pure and simple, trying to rechamber a match grade .22 is rarely if ever done. Throats wear out in centerfire guns, not rimfire.
As far as a 40X no longer engraving, I'd guess you have an uncleaned carbon ring in the throat or cleaning rod damage.

 

[AckleymanII]

I have no idea where you got some of this stuff but a lot of it is plain wrong.
First, there is no such thing as a tight throat, per se. Leade angles vary, thats it.
.22 throats dob't wear out and nobody sets them back, pure and simple, trying to rechamber a match grade .22 is rarely if ever done. Throats wear out in centerfire guns, not rimfire.
As far as a 40X no longer engraving, I'd guess you have an uncleaned carbon ring in the throat or cleaning rod damage.

The guy that built the Olympic rifles taught me this, question is where did you get your information. We had a serious discussion on the bullets not engraving any more, he said it was normal wear as the engraving is very shallow. A carbon ring where the bullet engraves means that the bullet would show signs of this just by pushing the bullet into the chamber, and the Hawkeye would show it in a skinny minute.

We both have lathes, and 20 pilots per caliber to determine throat wear. We really don't care what others do, when the bullet is not being engraved anymore...make some choices to get the accuracy back...it is your party.

Glass in the priming compound erodes throats, at what rate depends on a lot, ammo brand could have something to do with it also as priming compounds vary.

The custom Ruger 10/22 with the 40x barrel on it, did not get cleaned very often, perhaps every 500 rounds plus. This barrel was shot on a target rich environment of Grounds squirrel where the Alfalfa pivot had an estimated 250,000 ground squirrels on it. So, we shot a lot of 22 mini mag HP, in the area of about 1000 rounds per trip. I don't know how the wear would vary from a single shot 40x shot in BR 50 matches.

By the way, throat dia. and leade angle are two very different issues on a reamer.

 

[SBS]

.22 throats dob't wear out and nobody sets them back, pure and simple, trying to rechamber a match grade .22 is rarely if ever done. Throats wear out in centerfire guns, not rimfire.

Since we apparently don't mind disagreement, I can tell you that the rifling in front of the chamber DOES wear out on rimfire rifles. Depends primarily on round count, cleaning regimen and hardness of the steel. I have set barrels back that had a depression so deep in front of the chamber that a new chamber would not clean up. The wear/depression starts at 6 o'clock and gradually moves up the sides and down the bore.
I would agree that there are fewer barrels set back in prone and position shooting these days, but I attribute it to the high percentage of German rifles (pressed in barrels) used, as they are difficult for most gunsmiths to remove, set back and replace. It used a be a lot more common with threaded receiver rifles such as 52's, 37's and 40X's. You still see quite a bit of it in the BR game, where custom actions are usually threaded.
Setting a barrel back can extend the accuracy life of the barrel. Unlike centerfire barrels which can have considerable wear for some distance down the bore, rimfire wear is principally located just in front of the chamber. Plus the more a RF barrel is shot, any stresses not fully relieved when manufactured seem to lessen. Some have shot better after rechambering than they ever did when new. 2 of my SB prone rifles have been set back (1 because of a deep shadow in the throat at 6'oclock & 1 because of a machining scar in the rifling from the factory), and both are excellent shooters.

 

[AckleymanII]

Since we apparently don't mind disagreement, I can tell you that the rifling in front of the chamber DOES wear out on rimfire rifles. Depends primarily on round count, cleaning regimen and hardness of the steel. I have set barrels back that had a depression so deep in front of the chamber that a new chamber would not clean up. The wear/depression starts at 6 o'clock and gradually moves up the sides and down the bore.
I would agree that there are fewer barrels set back in prone and position shooting these days, but I attribute it to the high percentage of German rifles (pressed in barrels) used, as they are difficult for most gunsmiths to remove, set back and replace. It used a be a lot more common with threaded receiver rifles such as 52's, 37's and 40X's. You still see quite a bit of it in the BR game, where custom actions are usually threaded.
Setting a barrel back can extend the accuracy life of the barrel. Unlike centerfire barrels which can have considerable wear for some distance down the bore, rimfire wear is principally located just in front of the chamber. Plus the more a RF barrel is shot, any stresses not fully relieved when manufactured seem to lessen. Some have shot better after rechambering than they ever did when new. 2 of my SB prone rifles have been set back (1 because of a deep shadow in the throat at 6'oclock & 1 because of a machining scar in the rifling from the factory), and both are excellent shooters.

When the guys were working on the Olympic project, the also had the daunting task of inventing an entire new ammo to beat the Russians that were ahead of us in terms of rifles and ammo. The Russians were so secretive about their ammo, they would not even let one of their fired cases be picked up.

So, these great guys working on the Olympic team had to invent an entirely new ammo, including case design, priming compound, bullet design, and lube. Each part of the component presented a daunting task, and the very best minds in the gun industry and Bill Davis of Aberdeen Proving grounds was involved. As they perfected the ammo, a patent was applied for. They donated the patent to the Olympic Committee, and Federal bought the Patent, which keeps the USA Olympic Team funded. It was during all this testing that the glass in the priming compound was discussed extensively in barrel wear as to how much a barrel could be shot before accuracy degradation. These of course were Hart SS match barrels being used on Rem 40X actions. Reamer designs are critical for best accuracy on a RF, and a match with certain kinds of ammo used has to be taken into consideration. Sloppy factory chambers leave a whole lot to be desired, and a custom gunsmith who has a good working knowledge of Reamer design and 22 RF is the best money you will ever spend if you are a RF freek.

I can tell you that if your bullets are not being engraved on closing the bolt, you are leaving a lot of accuracy on the table. Dave Kiff has a lot of RF Reamers that can help a guy out.