I just purchased a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 rifle and am wondering if anyone knows what cartridge works with it. It says "7mm" on the barrel, but that could be a lot of different cartridges. I believe it was manufactured around 1924 or 1925. There's not a lot of information on these rifles and hoping there's someone here that is knowledgeable. If not, I'll take it to a smith to have them figure it out. Thanks.
Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 Carbine Cartridge Help
- Thread starter WindSurgeon
- Start date
Most 1903s were made in 6.5X54mm, quite a short cartridge for its time. Some stretched 1903s were made from 1925 onwards for longer cartridges such as 270 and 30-06 and the heftier metric numbers. As a 7mm made around that time, that would almost certainly be 7X57mm Mauser if original as it was the outstanding contemporary design in the calibre in Europe and very widespread, also moderately popular in the US if it were an export model.
The only way you'll know for sure is to either make a chamber cast yourself using Cerrosafe (available from Brownells among others) or get a gunsmith to do it for you and then compare the casting to chamber drawings. If 7X57mm and the barrel is in good condition this will be a superb deer rifle and a pretty rare, likely collectable, historic piece.
The only way you'll know for sure is to either make a chamber cast yourself using Cerrosafe (available from Brownells among others) or get a gunsmith to do it for you and then compare the casting to chamber drawings. If 7X57mm and the barrel is in good condition this will be a superb deer rifle and a pretty rare, likely collectable, historic piece.
Thank you Laurie. I was thinking that as well. I found a reference to the 7x57 being made in 1925, but that may have been a model 1925, but the reference sheet was not very clear. Before that, they were all 6.5x54. I picked it up at a modern millitary weapons auction that must have just had the wrong audience for it because I picked it up on the cheap for what I know these to typically go for. It has been used, and the stock shows it, but the bluing is 90%.
Just had a thought. It could also conceivably be in 7X64mm Breneke, a WW1 period German design that is very close in size and performance to the later 280 Rem. It was (and remains) a popular cartridge in some parts of Europe and has a following in my neck of the woods, the UK. Some quality European rifles imported into the USA back then were specified for the Brenecke cartridges where they had a limited following among well off deerhunters and those who could afford African trips with the 7X64 being an excellent plains game number. (The well off bit goes without saying anyway as anyone who could afford an M-S M1903 in the 1920s wasn't down to his last halfpenny.) When European rifles are simply marked 7mm though, 7X57 is usually what's being referred to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7×64mm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7×64mm
If your Mannlicher Schoenauer is stamped M1903 over its front bridge and 7mm on the barrel, it has been rebarrelled / rebored. I would absolutely do a chamber cast before proceeding.
Also, the above information is not entirely correct.
All M1903 actions (not most) that left the Steyr factory, as with the M1900 and Y1903 through 1930 'Greek' MS, were chambered for the Mannlicher Schoenauer proprietary cartridge of 6,5x54.
The early models of MS sporting rifles were cartridge specific, each model had a corresponding MS proprietary cartridge, thus:
M1903 - 6.5x54
M1905 - 9x56
M1908 - 8x56
M1910 - 9.5x57 known to british trade as .375 Nitro Express Rimless
The 'stretched' MS action that Laurie referred to started with the M1924 'Sequoia' which was chambered in .30 - '06 in an effort to increase sales to the United States. It also was then that a 'guide ring' was added to the Schoenauer magazine, allowing for greater flexibility with cartridge choices. The Sequoia didn't sell well, but Steyr continued with the longer action in a variety of calibers, mostly metric, and including both 7x64 and 7x57. These have come to be known to collectors as 'M1925', though Stoeger called them 'High Velocity'. They are marked with their 'kaliber' on the front ring whereas previous MS had their model number.
Last edited:
.
Notice that the Mannlicher Schoenauer was available in full stocked carbine, half stocked rifle, and in takedown form with single or double trigger (single only in takedown).
What has become known to many as a 'Mannlicher stock' over time is actually a stutzen, or full stocked carbine. They were once popular on several European arms and were never exclusive to Steyr or to Mannlicher designs.
Here is a Mauser stutzen from the same (1939) Stoeger catalog.
Notice that the Mannlicher Schoenauer was available in full stocked carbine, half stocked rifle, and in takedown form with single or double trigger (single only in takedown).
What has become known to many as a 'Mannlicher stock' over time is actually a stutzen, or full stocked carbine. They were once popular on several European arms and were never exclusive to Steyr or to Mannlicher designs.
Here is a Mauser stutzen from the same (1939) Stoeger catalog.
Last edited:
Stutzens used to be quite popular in the UK, but not for some time. As with US shooters, such rifles are often misnamed as being 'Mannlicher stocked' over here too. When BSA was still in business, it made an excellent CF2 Stutzen model, probably more with the continental European hunter in mind rather than its home market, but some or even many must have sold here too. I used to see them regularly on the budget end of the second hand market here until maybe 20 or so years ago. The ones I handled were all 270 Win, but I know they made them for other cartridges. The only one I ever saw shot (on a rifle range, not 'on the hill') was remarkably accurate at 100 yards with handloads, so the alleged deleterious Mannlicher stock effect certainly didn't apply to that example.
So what caliber did this puppy turn out to be?
I did not take it in for a chamber cast. After some further research, I found that the gun is a 7x57mm Mauser. Apparently in the 1920's, it was common for these rifles to be imported to the US without a barrel and fitted with a Winchester barrel. The 7 m/m that is stamped on the barrel and incorrect stamping for a Euro manufactured 7 millimeter. Euro guns would have been 7x57mm. I found a reference to Winchester's old designation for the chamber that put it together. "M/M" does not stand for "millimeter", it stands for "Millimeter Mauser" which was the way Americans refereed to the caliber.
So I bought a few vintage cartridges at the Weapons Collectors show in 7mm Mauser and they ran through just fine. I worked up some loads to take to the range and the gun fired and cycled almost perfectly.
I am now working on finding the rest of the mount (and identifying it) that fits to rail that is on the rifle and a vintage scope to go on top. Winter project. Also needs to be worked through by my gunsmith because the bolt will not stay cocked at times, hence my comment "almost perfectly". Old rifles
Some images. Note the rail on the side that is now covered by a Walnut insert. Planning to find the rest of the side mount that attaches to it. I was thinking it might be a Paul Jaeger Mount, but the rails for that are notched, and this one is not.
Attachments
Last edited:
Very nice! Thanks for posting the photos. I hope it shoots well for you when you get it scoped up. I think if I were ever to buy one I'd look to get one in 6.5 MS as it so naturally fits this vintage rifle's history and character, but as a practical deer round, the 7X57mm (a cartridge I love in vintage military Mausers) is undoubtedly superior.
One reason M1903s were relatively cheap here in the UK for a long time (probably not now) was that the various 1960s UK Deer Acts effectively outlawed the cartridge as being 'underpowered' - a complete nonsense given what continental European deer and mountain sheep hunters have killed very effectively with the old 6.5X53 for a century plus. The larger red deer in mainland Europe are bigger, tougher animals than any of ours in the British Isles. Even the little roedeer (40-70 lb weight) which the Scottish legislation allows to be taken legally with 22 centrefires from 222 Rem upwards was barred to the 6.5 MS because there is a velocity floor that must be exceeded. (Quite practical for achievement with handloads, but back then 99% of the sort of people who owned these rifles would have bought factory RWS, Norma, or Hirtenberger heavy bullet ammo.)
One reason M1903s were relatively cheap here in the UK for a long time (probably not now) was that the various 1960s UK Deer Acts effectively outlawed the cartridge as being 'underpowered' - a complete nonsense given what continental European deer and mountain sheep hunters have killed very effectively with the old 6.5X53 for a century plus. The larger red deer in mainland Europe are bigger, tougher animals than any of ours in the British Isles. Even the little roedeer (40-70 lb weight) which the Scottish legislation allows to be taken legally with 22 centrefires from 222 Rem upwards was barred to the 6.5 MS because there is a velocity floor that must be exceeded. (Quite practical for achievement with handloads, but back then 99% of the sort of people who owned these rifles would have bought factory RWS, Norma, or Hirtenberger heavy bullet ammo.)
Check Echo or Griffen and Howe mounts , even weaver made side mounts .
Beautiful rifle . I'm in the process ( started 30 yrs ago ) of finishing a Greek military 1903 . It'll be 257 Roberts or 6mm Remington, that's what will fit in the rotary magazine . It'll be heavier than originally intended and probably have a modern style stock . Modern as in a racy stock design that was " in " when I started this project, around 1976 .
Good luck and you've got a great one .
Beautiful rifle . I'm in the process ( started 30 yrs ago ) of finishing a Greek military 1903 . It'll be 257 Roberts or 6mm Remington, that's what will fit in the rotary magazine . It'll be heavier than originally intended and probably have a modern style stock . Modern as in a racy stock design that was " in " when I started this project, around 1976 .
Good luck and you've got a great one .
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.