M1A reloads

[bigedp51]

Small Base sizer is a tool any handloader NEEDS if they use or plan to use any brass fired in chamber other than specific rifle being loaded for.

SB sizer will rehab brass that even FL sizer won't enable to function.

I have three buckets of once fired .223/5.56 brass that was fired in a multitude of different M16 and AR15 rifles. Every piece of this brass was sized in a normal resizing die and NOT a small base die. Every one of these resized cases will chamber and fire in four different .223/5.56 rifles.

The only time you need a small base die is when a "NORMAL" die does not resize the body of the case small enough to fit the chamber.

This includes reloading commercial .223 cases to 5.56 chamber pressures and wondering why they don't fit your chamber.

Below a five gallon bucket of Remington .223 cases fired in AR type rifles RESIZED with a normal die.

Below two five gallon buckets of Lake City cases resized in a normal resizing die that fit four different chambers.

Knowing your cases and their pressure limitations goes a long way before giving out blanket coverage information on small base dies when they are NOT needed.

Below is an exaggerated example of why a small base die would be needed and if it did happen your op rod would need to be replaced along with your reloading practices.

 

[snert]

shooter2112

That was the best answer I have seen. I am about to load about 200 rounds for a friend who has a M1A shorty. I plan to follow your rules.

(He gave me 1300 once fired (in a 700) fed gold medal brass). I owe him 200 reloads for his M1 in payment.

Snert

 

[Rich916]

Thanks all, youve been more help than you'll ever know. I'm glad I havent touched these rounds yet. The mor time that passes themore info I get. I bought a resizer and bullet puller. The first thing I will try is pulling the bullets and resizing with a LB re-sizer. Even in that works I stll want to try a different powder. I'm lucky enough to have a wide selection that I stockedup on. IMR 4895 seams to come as standard. I have plenty of it and Varget and IMR 3031.

I will make sure to give you all sme feedback on Sunday night.

 

[Rich916]

Shooter and biged, I rally appreciate your well thought out replies. I in no way knock anyone's replies, theyve all benn helpful.

 

[Shooter2112]

Rich916,

You are more than welcome and I hope you find that 'perfect' load for your weapon. Good on ya that you got stocked up on powders before the rush........allot of folks were left in a futile quest for components after F-stein opened her mouth. One more item based on your most recent comments..........3031 is at the extreme end of fast powders for the M1A.....not advised for bullets over 125gr as most M1a guru's tell. It's a great 308 bolt gun powder with 150grain nosler bt's........but bolt guns are far more pressure-forgivable. Your supply of 4895 and Varget will serve you well and provide the accuracy throughout the suitable projectile ranges I mentioned in my first post........I'd stick with those until you get the reliability down cold. Oh - one thing I didn't mention before - be wary of factory ammo. Remington green box fmj is pretty good - they are loaded to low-to-moderate pressure and won't beat your weapon. Not real accurate, but suitable as plinkers. GMM is good too - superperformance is too hot IMO.

Best of shooting to you Sir

Snert - thanks for the compliment - very much appreciated.......I was lucky enough years ago to benefit from some advice posted in forums like this and sharing experience is what it's all about. Good reloading to you as well. My shorty shoots with a reduction in velocity (for previous loads mentioned) around 100-150fps and the impact point @ 200 yds was 3/4 MOA lower. Have fun.

 

[Rich916]

OK Boys (and girl) Ive got some feedback. I pulled bullets from all 700 rounds, some of us learn the hard way. I ran 10 of the brass through a RCBS Small BAse resizer. I loaded to two differnt loads. 5 of 43 grns IMR 8208 XBR and 5 with 41 grns IMR 4895. IMR 8208 cycled perfectly. 4895 improved tremendously but had two ejection failures. I think it just didnt have enough power behind. I was still one hell of an improvement. GOing to load 5 more with 42 grns and 5 more with 43 grns. YAll have been great. I'll let you know how the 4895 rounds shoot tomorrow after I get back from the levee.

 

[hogan]

Big Ed P51,


Think you have MISSED THE POINT here. Not talking about AR-15 or even AR-10 rifles...

You don't need an SB sizer... None of your chambers are .223rem spec chambers, are they? They're either Wylde or NATO chambers which are larger dimension. You're already sizing down by using .223 dies, but don't know it.

The Garand action don't have a bolt-carrier with an extra couple of pounds of weight helping to seat the chambered round, the way an AR-10 does. Guy wants to RELOAD for his M-1a. Handloading unfired virgin brass makes more sense to me in an M1a; but what do I know? Not going to risk problems in my rifle. Reload brass I fired in that rifle, sure. Not gonna shoot unknown 1x .308 brass, at least unless I used an SB Sizer first...

SB Sizer is just a tool. Don't got one? Then you have to risk a jam or slamfire, or don't use the brass...

Glen Zediker's books, The Competitive AR 1&2 have a lot of great handloading info. His article on M-14/M-1a handloading, link posted earlier, is a great overview for anyone looking to load for accuracy & dependable function.

What works in the world of Armalite Pattern Rifles has very limited application for Garand Action Rifles.

Buying once-fired brass for .308 is a cropshoot. Maybe that LC was fired in an M-60 or mini-gun? Maybe it was fired from a CETME or some poorly constructed parts gun with a cheap barrel and lousy chambering job? Having an SB Sizer die might enable some of this brass to function just fine. Never know unless you have one...

 

[Rich916]

Hogan, all I am reporting is a result that worked. THe SB resizer made a world of difference. Does that mean I still cat improve, NO. Like I said, I am a rookie reloader and have a long way to go. VEry respectfully to you sir, I value your opinion as much as I do the others on this forum, that's why I am here. A friend whom is an avid and very knowelable reloader referred me to this site. I based my loads off of recomendations and hornady load data. PLease keep the constructive criticism as I value all of your knowledge.

 

[Rich916]

Sorry Hogan, I failed to pay attention to detail and saw your post was to Big Ed. Semper Fi Brother.

 

[Shooter2112]

Rich916,

Good to hear you had a decent shoot day -
Is the Hornady manual recommending 8208 in the 308WIN service rifle section? My Hornady 10th ed. (2010) has two 308WIN sections - one for service rifle, and one for std. 308WIN (Bolt guns). No 8208 listed as recommended in the 10th ed. 308 service rifle loadings anywhere.........

 

[Shooter2112]

Rich916,

Here is a pretty good post on the 8208 subject from the guys on the M14 forum I peruse......
http://m14forum.com/ammunition/116191-imr-8208-xbr-308-max.html

S

 

[Rich916]

Shooter, no sir, my hornady manual does not list 8208 in the service rifle section. I welcome your input sir.

 

[Rich916]

I will check in tomorrow after my 4895 loads, Guns Up Bros, payback is a medivac.

 

[bigedp51]

hogan

I'm not missing any point, I don't use small base dies on my M1 Garand because I don't need them. In over 45 years of reloading I have NEVER needed small base dies.

Below you can see the military 7.62 chamber diameter is already .0025 larger than standard and a "NORMAL" .308 resizing dia will make the case more than small enough to chamber.

All we are all doing is physic guesswork on the OP problem because we do not have the rifle in our own hands or know how the OP is using his reloading press and dies. A over gassed M1A will blow the shoulder further forward than normal and the brass can spring back after being full length resized. 99 times out of a 100 the shoulder is the chambering problem and NOT the base diameter of the case.

1. What we do not know is what type and size of chamber the OPs Springfield Armory M1A has.

2. And if his once fired 7.62 brass was fired in a M240 machine gun and is stretched out of shape.

Simply looking at the information below any normal resizing die will make .308/7.62 cases small enough to chamber in a M14 or M1A as long as you do not have a abnormally small chamber or brass that was stretched beyond it limits.

What many people are missing is a small base die will shorten case life and that small base dies are over used through bad advice.

Now look at the freebore length below on these chambers and understand chamber pressure and over gassing will blow the shoulder forward and the fired case will be LONGER than the chamber when fired. Look at the freebore length and think about the loading data you are using and chamber pressure. And on top of this a small base die doesn't bump the shoulder back further than a normal die will.

Over resizing a cartridge case and bumping the shoulder back too far shortens case life and all you need to do is bump the shoulder back .002 to .004 for reliable chambering on the M14 rifle. And if a small base resizing die had been used below the cases would have failed much sooner.

 

[Laurie]

A over gassed M1A will blow the shoulder further forward than normal [bigedp51]

We briefly had these rifles in the UK during the mid to late 80s - genuine surplus M14s too mostly as there was never any 'once a machine-gun, always a machine-gun' regulations here - but then lost all centrefire semi-auto rifles from 1st April 1989 when they were reclassified as 'prohibited weapons' under the 1988 Firearms (Amendment) Act following the Hungerford massacre. So, they're strange beasts to most of us when there is a need to go beyond standard reloading practices.

I still have a 'Precision Shooting' magazine annual in book form somewhere that has an interesting article about sizing brass for the M1A and M14 detailing how inconsistent shoulder positions were straight off the press due to various factors and how difficult, even potentially dangerous, that made life for the M1A competition shooter. It was my first indication that full-length sizing is a much more complicated and critical activity than most handloaders realise.

I'm intrigued though by your reference to 'over-gassing'. As a non semi-auto user (thanks to HM government, not personal inclination) I've never heard it referred to before. Just what happens to the case here?

 

[bigedp51]

Over gassing, the bolt moves to the rear while there is still pressure in the barrel, caused by high port pressure. This allows the shoulder of the case to move forward as the base of the case is moving to the rear following the bolt. Over gassing also causes case swipes on the rear of the case and bent op rods. The most common problem are cases that end up longer than the chamber and if not resized properly due to brass spring back are hard to chamber.

The cure is using case gauges and making sure the shoulder is bumped back far enough to chamber properly, meaning bumping the shoulder back .002 to .004 smaller than the chamber.

This subject is covered in detail at the M14 forum (m14forum.com/) and can be found under the search function.

 

[Laurie]

Thank you

 

[Shooter2112]

Rich916...
I know it's been awhile..... but did you get your loads sorted out?
I have been a bit busy since this post was laid to rest, but perhaps I have other views that may help. God knows powders are more available now! Hope all has gone well! S

 

[snert]

Rich916...
I know it's been awhile..... but did you get your loads sorted out?
I have been a bit busy since this post was laid to rest, but perhaps I have other views that may help. God knows powders are more available now! Hope all has gone well! S

Not for nothing, but if you are loading on a progressive, it is possible that you think you are getting FL sizing but are not. If this is the case, a simple way to find out is to use the die in a single stage press and adjust to cam over the press arm. That will give you max sizing.

FWIW I too have never used or needed a SB die in a M1A. I use a oderate load (2550 FPS) of 2495, standard Winchester primer seated well, and cut my cases a bit short.

SNERT

 

[711rollerdog]

Invest in a 308 case gauge, an RCBS precision mic. (308), and a small base die.
I set my dies up to read 0 or +1 on the mic. Try them out in the case gauge. If they do not slide in and out of the case gauge smoothly, I typically run all
of the box through my small base die. I cannot see a change in my groups between the two dies... Good Luck