M1A reloads

[Rich916]

I need help. My reloads are not cycling smoothly. About every third shot theyre either not extracting from the chamber or are not fully seating against bolt. I am not having this problem with store bought ammo. My loads are once fire lake city brass, hornady 150 grn fmj's, 42.4 grns IMR 8208 XBR, and remington 9.5 large rifle primers. 150 grn Hornady fmj's are loaded per HOrnady manual data, not the service rife data, I couldt find the exact 150 grn data in the service rifle section. Guns up bro's, semper fi.

Ive only been reloading for 9 months so any constructive criticism is greatly appreciated.

 

[firearmdoc1]

Sounds like you need to use a small base die.

 

[Bob3700]

Alright, a few questions.

First, is your rifle a stock production piece or a custom built match rifle? If custom, you may have a tight chamber and need a small base die to size the case sufficiently. Does a full length sized case chamber in your rifle?

Next. Have you paid attention to the overall length of the cases? They can grow in length and keep you from chambering a round.

Now, how far are you pushing the shoulder of the case back when full length sizing? I would suggest .003 to .004" setback. That will give your brass a reasonable life and not get you into trouble with case head separations.

So that should get you started. Check out those items and see what happens.

Bob

 

[Rich916]

Thanks Bob. its a standard M1A with walnut stock. JUst bought it last december, its brand new. MY overall case lengths are 2.010 and all other critical measurements are within specs. don't know what you mean by pushing the shoulder back. Ive reloaded a lot of rounds for many calibers and this the first time I've had this problem. unfortunately i have 700 of these loaded.

 

[Rich916]

Firearm, whats a small base die. I'm full length resizing with RCBS .308 winchester

 

[CADDIE5]

FL dies are predominantly used for bolt guns. M1A's require small base dies-- these dies set the cartridge to minimum spec. if you mic the base of the case above the rim for the factory ammo and those fl sized you will find that it has not formed the base to a small enough diameter. You need to pull the bullet and run the brass through small base dies-- they are sold by rcbs as well as forster. You can find more info on the National Match forum ( for service rifle shooters). Good luck.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Buy one of these.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/880646/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gage-308-winchester

 

[firearmdoc1]

Small base dies are normally needed when you are reloading brass shot from a semi auto. When the bolt begins to open, the pressure in the chamber has still not dropped sufficiently that there is a potential that the base of the brass will still expand without the chamber walls to limit the expansion of the brass. A small base die will size the case to minimum dimensions.

 

[Bob3700]

Rich916,

You need to measure a fired case from the mid shoulder datum to the base. You want the dimension of a sized case to be .003 to .004" shorter than that.

The chamber of your rifle has a specific head space length. It is measured from mid shoulder to the face of the bolt.

So when you size your brass, you want to "push the shoulder back" a sufficient distance so that the cartridge will fit the chamber with a just enough clearance that the action functions reliably.

If you push the should back too much, then you create too much clearance (headspace) and the cases will stretch too much and eventually cause case head separations.

If the shoulder is not pushed back enough, the bolt will not close.

You can the get case measuring tools that fit on a dial caliper from Hornady. It is a must have too for precision reloads.

You still probably need a small base full length sizing die. It won't hurt a thing and will get the base of your brass sized down so that chambering will not be an issue.

You might want to invest in a 0-1" micrometer. That way you can measure the fired brass just above the extractor rim vz your sized brass. That will tell the story right there. Measure a factory round vs your sized cases and see what the difference it.

Hope that explains it.

Bob

 

[jonbearman]

I use small base dies with all my autoloaders for smooth feeding.If it bulges slightly towards the extractor rim,you may have a problem.I would invest in the hornady tools for measuring the case after it comes out of the die.What kind of dies are you using currently?

 

[fayettefatts]

I know that a lot of folks recommend small base dies for semi autos. I have never used them and over the years I've fed 2 m-1's an m1-a and 3 ar-15's with no feeding or extraction issues. I do measure the amount the shoulder is pushed back with RCBS Precision Mics. I try to bump shoulders .002" - .003" when loading semi autos, .001" for bolt guns. Works for me.

 

[Laurie]

Apart from other suggested causes, you say you're starting with once-fired brass. If so, it'll have been fired in a number of rifles with quite marked variations in chamber dimensions. Simply full-length sizing such brass, especially with standard dies, doesn't guarantee easy chambering or extraction as some may still be marginally oversize at the bottom of the case body just above the solid web in relation to your chamber.

Examine the cases of the rounds you have trouble with. Are there any slight witness marks in that area showing over-tight contact with the chamber walls?

Apart from small-base dies, if this is the problem, the answer is to always start with new brass or brass from factory ammo fired in that one rifle. It's a very good policy to use anyway in any competition rifle, whether semi-auto or single-shot.

 

[thefitter]

I know that a lot of folks recommend small base dies for semi autos. I have never used them and over the years I've fed 2 m-1's an m1-a and 3 ar-15's with no feeding or extraction issues. I do measure the amount the shoulder is pushed back with RCBS Precision Mics. I try to bump shoulders .002" - .003" when loading semi autos, .001" for bolt guns. Works for me.

+1 on all of this.

FL size and bump shoulder each firing, that's all I ever do for 2 Springfield M1As and 2 Custom LRB M14s

 

[hogan]

Probably NOT a small-base matter since guy has a standard chamber.

Got a .308 bolt rifle? Try chambering a sized pc of LC in your bolt gun. If it won't chamber, maybe the brass is the issue. If chambers fine in your bolt rifle, then maybe your throat is on the short side, but hard to figure that since you're loading 150gr bullets.

Got an M-14 chamber brush? Use it and clean the hell out of your barrel with Barnes CR-10 which really removes copper.

RCBS Precision Mic or Wilson Case Gauge can measure oal of brass. Measure before firing for dimension and after. Probably safer to size .004-.005 under fired dimension and be sure primers are seated well below rim of primer pocket.

I use a SB sizer for LC .308 brass on first go-round. After that regular sizer is fine. Might want to see Glen Zediker's site for M-14 handloading tips. Definitely don't want to be risking a slam-fire or out of battery ignition. http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html

 

[jonbearman]

What used to work may not anymore.Now I understand you are using unknown brass,the small base is a must.I dont understand why you are fighting us on the idea since you asked for help.I am telling you to buy a small base and dont look back,it will make the difference.I am not trying to be mean,just trying to helpyou.

 

[bigedp51]

You have a military chamber that is already larger in diameter than a commercial factory rifle and small base dies can and will over resize the base of the case and shorten its useful life. I have been reloading for over 45 years and have NEVER needed small base dies and in many cases wished the base of the die was larger in diameter.

You have a gas gun and the cases in a M1, M1A and AR15 can end up longer than your actual chamber measurement. The cyclic gas is moving the bolt to the rear while pressure is still in the barrel and the shoulder of the case can be blown forward slightly. Meaning the cartridge headspace is longer than chamber headspace. This is aggravated with older brass that needs to be annealed which causes the shoulder of the case to spring back even further "AFTER" sizing the case.

If your reloading mixed brass then set your dies for making hard contact with the shell holder (cam over) If the cases still do not fit you will need to anneal the case necks and check your shell holder height (.125) and make sure you are pushing the shoulder of the case back far enough to properly fit your chamber.

Normally on a bolt gun when full length resizing you only need to bump or push the shoulder back .001 to .002 smaller than the chamber length when resizing.

On gas guns you need to bump or push the shoulder back .003 to .004 for reliable semi-auto functioning.

I would recommend the Hornady cartridge case headspace attached to a vernier caliper as only one gauge needs to be purchased for all your rifles.

Once my dies are setup normally meaning cam over, I use the shim set below to control cartridge headspace for the proper amount of shoulder bump.

You could simply have a chamber close to minimum headspace and a resizing die/shell holder that is not bumping the shoulder back far enough. A simple fix would be to lap the top of the shell holder and remove .001 or .002 to make all your cases fit your chamber.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Read what bigedp51 says. Now read it again.
Full length resize "every time", double check that the loaded rounds are in the 2750 FPS range and that the OAL of the case isn't too long.
OAL of the brass is critical. Mixed brass? No problem as long as it's full length resized and will fit back in the chamber and the bolt goes to full closed.
2750 FPS is the operating range of the M1A gas system. That's critical or you get a short stroke.
Load from the mag "only". No single feeds or you're asking for trouble. (been there, done that) :-[
Make sure your primers are seated flush or a little below in the primer pocket to avoid slam fires.
Over 5,000+ "reloaded" rounds and never had any problems. All kinds of mixed headstamp brass. It all shoots.
Watch for brass that's starting to show signs of case head seperation. Scrap it or keep a broken case extractor handy. The M1A is "real mean" on brass.
Small base die? Never saw the need for one for my M1A. It's a "battle rifle", designed to shoot when others won't and in pretty rough conditions. Load some ammo and get to shooting.

 

[Shooter2112]

Rich916,

All of these guys have come up with extremely good suggestions and very good reasons why you need to be more judicious with M1A reloads.......so please bare with us.......we don't want to see you kaboom your weapon.
There is a very popular (and for some controversial) article out there you should read. Zediker is a guru in many circles and referenced/cited often.
It is here: http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf
I'm not going to go into everything that GZ says about loading the M1A - however.......
There are a ton of great threads on other sites such as: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4158280 that are worth reading.
Now my two cents and a few qualifications -
I have been shooting service rifle matches for about 15 years or so (100,300,500,600 and 900 with the M1A) - all with my own reloaded ammo or mil-spec handed out at match time.
I have been reloading for a very long time and I have made most of the the mistakes......except kabooming a gun.
The tips you have chosen should serve you well with non-match paper punching out to 300 or so. Those Horny 150's are as good as it gets in the 150fmj class.
Do yourself a favor (I know you have 700rds loaded) and get away from 8208XBR with the M1A. I know it's in the 'burn rate range' of the M1A - but not all the powders between 4064 and 3031 are suitable. 8208XBR is a magnificent powder for 1K shooters shooting 155VLD's in BOLT GUNS. I use it for this purpose and it's lights out. Not so much with the M1A. The reason I recommend you steer clear of 8208XBR in your M1A is the pressure increases associated with very small upward changes in charge with 8208 are pretty severe. I have found 8208 to be a much hotter powder than represented in anyone's burn chart......including Hodgdon's chart. I'll bet you your next 8lbs of powder that you're slapping that M1A bolt pretty good with the charge you are using now. Not good for the accuracy and longevity of the weapon at all and you WILL bend an op-rod with 8208 unless you are very, very careful. I know it's not a good time to go on the hunt for more powder, but any of the 4895's (or accurate 2495) will serve you best IMO. They are versatile powders and not as prone to pressure issues - much more forgivable throughout the pressure/load range. The 4895's were made for this rifle........get IMR4895 if possible - it's the original and best performer for me, with consistent velocities lot-to-lot. Varget and IMR4064 have also served me well with various bullet weights and brands. I know pulling 700 rounds make you cringe.......heck..........it makes US cringe too because most of us have had to bite the bullet and pull boxes of rounds too........I had to pull 500 rounds of '06 for my Garand years ago because I couldn't get W788 to light with CCI200's. I'm glad I did - no more extraction problems or 'click-bags' in the colder weather - I went to CCI34's and IMR4895 and problem solved - should have done that to begin with. I shot the W788 in a 5.56 and all was right with the world again.
My next suggestion is that you get away from rem primers and go to CCI34's if you can. The rem primers have a fairly soft cup (not as soft as federal, but soft enough) and some day you might get greeted with a slam fire or out of battery detonation - either can/will ruin your day. Zediker has more on this plus pics. Pat's Reloading still has these listed for sale and so does Bruno's..........yes, I know primers are wicked expensive right now, but it's worth the investment in safety if you can get your hands on a couple thou. Remember to drop you loads down a 1/2 grain when you switch, as 34's are considered by CCI to be magnum strength. I have used CCI200's in a pinch and it worked out ok - there were no noticeable differences in accuracy after I got the load worked up.
2650fps with 150's should be your top-end velocity IMO. It won't slap your bolt around, beat up the weapon and some day you'll be able to hand it down to the grand-kids. 2600fps with SMK 168's, 2550 with SMK 175's. Your M1A should shoot like a dream at these velocities.
GET A CASE GAUGE. period. Don't load for M1A (or anything else for that matter) without one. Zediker goes into excruciating detail about this and this section is of utmost importance for all the reasons other gents in this thread and Zediker make clear. Measure every single case before you load it, you'll be glad you did. Make sure your die is set up right and you are bumping back that shoulder - that's a big deal - I have 4 M1A's and they are all chambered only 1/2 to one thou over SAMMI spec. Every one I know that has an M1A - standard, loaded, SM or surplus - all of these rifles are never over one thou SAMMI headspaced. The case headspace has to be right - this is one of the most critical dimensions to pay attention to with an M1A.
You have to be very certain that you don't jam your loads into the lands of an M1A. Pressure spikes WILL ensue and you are rolling the dice on case separations, extraction problems, cracked bolts, etc. If you have the rounds that you tried to chamber but couldn't, check them for land marks and see if you are loading your rounds too long. Freebore measurement is no easy task with the M1A - don't go over the 2.800 max for 150fmj's and they'll be right as rain. It is common to find M1A's with shallow throats - they DO NOT like long brass - 2.010 is pushing your luck actually........if you can get them back to a spec. 2.000 that would be ideal. You case gauge (or micrometer) will tell the tale - if it's long, trim it or don't load it.
Get a taper crimp die (RCBS makes one especially for 7.62 service round loads) and MILDLY crimp your bullets - cannelure or not. You won't run the risk of bullet set-back during cycling and you won't have to dink around trying to find that perfect/safe neck tension......it's the safest way for you to go for now........when you get down the road and more confident, a set of neck sizing collets and die might be in your future.
Get a Hornady reloading book - it has loads for 308 Service Rifle - namely the M1A and Garand 308. One of the best $20 you'll ever spend.
I small base size my M1A brass because I'm only going to get 4 reloads max out if them anyway (I use LC too).....and it does add a level of reliability that I prefer. I used a standard 308 die set for years and that worked fine too, until I bought the RCBS 7.62 set years ago - it comes with a SB die. I never looked back. If you think you are going to get more than 5 reloads out of your brass you are kidding yourself - and asking for trouble. The M1A is a brass-beater and I retire my brass at 4 rounds out. No - I don't own an annealer.
Sort your brass by when you bought it and when you shoot it. If it was all one-shot when you bought it fine........but keep the 1-shot, 2-shot, etc in separate batches so when......and it will happen eventually......you start to see signs that those batches are giving up the ghost you can cull the whole lot before you have to dig a case out of your weapon. It's not worth loading a batch.......or parts of a batch of brass 'one more time' and having to extract a case from a chamber. It's not as easy as the extractor instructions make it look.........it sucks actually......and you stand a chance of gauging the heck out of your rifle in the process. Retire the brass when the brass tells you it's time.......and that time is usually at 4 loadings.

My recipes (match included) for the M1A are as follows:

41.0gr IMR4895, Hornady 150fmj, LC brass @ 2.000,CCI34's, COAL at 2.800, crimped at cannelure - 2644fps ave.
41.0gr IMR4895, 168SMK, LC brass @ 2.000, CCI34's, .020 off the lands, 2597fps ave
39.0gr RL15, 175SMK, LC brass @ 2.000, CCI34's, .015 off the lands, 2550fps ave.
42.0gr Varget, 168Amax, LC brass (1x) @2.000, CCI34's, COAL at 2.790, mild crimp - 2680fps ave (HOG HUNTING LOAD)
Watch for pressure signs.......not all gas guns are created equal. Pancake-flattened primers with a gas gun is usually not a good thing. Like the other guys said - make sure your primers are completely seated .002 below the base.

Good luck and be safe. Enjoy that M1A!!!!

All the best,
S

 

[bricktop]

Didn't read the whole thread in detail but I'll just put down here what I did when I had my M1A.

Used standard Lee dies, FL sized every time, Winchester brass, Wolf LR or FGMM primers, H4895 and N150 powder. N150 was extremely clean and consistent, could regularly get 3/4 MOA groups with SDs under 15 fps.

Was never able to get really good performance out of the factory tube. Once I put on a Wolf MMW barrel things vastly improved.

 

[hogan]

Small Base sizer is a tool any handloader NEEDS if they use or plan to use any brass fired in chamber other than specific rifle being loaded for.

SB sizer will rehab brass that even FL sizer won't enable to function.

Sierra manual has section on loading for gas guns.
Don't own the Sierra manual? If you shoot their bullets, give their techs a call and ask them for tips. If you use their "accuracy load" data, you can't go wrong...

The warrifles.com forum run by Fulton Armory might be the place to seek more info.