M1A accuracy by model

[grizzly45mag]

Hi,
I understand the concept of harmonics and how for long range accuracy, barrels need to be firmly bedded or free floated. In the case of the M1A, because of the stock, handguard and gas system, free floating is not really an option. I am guessing that is why the National Match rifles are bedded. Is this a correct assumption?

I am looking to get a new Loaded M1A, model MA9822. Without the bedding or Douglas barrel, what type of accuracy can I expect from this configuration with factory match ammo? Would this be a good 600yd iron sight config? Could I put a good scope on this config and have it be a good 1000yd gun? Are these expectations unrealistic?

Ammo I have been using is Hornady 165 SST Superformance. I am planning to start reloading soon

Thank you for your help
Grizz

 

[DRNewcomb]

Other's may differ but I would think that using an M1A as a 1000-yard gun would fall under the heading of "unrealistic expectations." Of course, it all depends on the size of the target but particularly not for F-Class sized bull's eyes.

 

[effendude]

The M1A was my first match rifle, bought many years ago when I started shooting a OTC league at my local club. I bought the "loaded" model and still have it. I upgraded the rear sight, op-rod and spring as well as the trigger group over the first couple years. I also learned the basics of reloading using the rifle. The M1A from Springfield is an awesome rifle, but it realistically is a 1.5-2 MOA rifle when running well. Old time service rifle shooters confirmed this in their comments to me over the years. Looking back, my learning curve was much tougher than the guys who started out with AR-15 rifles, whether match or service rifles. The AR has way less recoil, is easier to shoot well and the 80 grain bullets match pretty well against the 168 grain bullets at distance.

I started using Federal Gold Medal match ammo and the rifle shot well. Be aware that gas operated rifles such as the Garand and M1A are designed to operate within certain pressure ranges and using too hot of ammo or too heavy of a bullet with dramatically increase op-rod speed and bolt thrust. AR rifles have easy solutions for this problem, but choices are more limited for the big rifles.

The guys I know who have shot their M1A rifles at 1000 had lower front sight assemblies they installed. Optics obviously would work.

What type of shooting do you plan to do? NRA Long Range, F-Class, OTC? There are far better rifle choices for those disciplines.

Scott

 

[jr600yd]

Well I'm one of those old guys who cut their teeth on a M1-A. Back in the day 1/12 twist was favored shooting 168SMK's, IMR-4895 or 4064 powder, Lake City or Winchester brass and Winchester primers. Tried Federal Gold Match ammo, my rifle didn't like it. Pay attention to above posts ^^^^^^ hot loads will ruin your rifle pretty quick. A M1A tuned by a good smith is probably a 3/4 - 1in gun if you do your part. As for a 1K rifle....well there are better choices. 168 gr Bullets are not a good choice for 1K. 175-180 gr have better ballistics. Do not hot rod the M1-A, midrange loads and powders suitable for gas gun operation are the way to go.

 

[hpshooter]

Post 3 and 4 are pretty much spot on in my experience. I own several M1-A's that include a SA basic rifle, a 70's vintage M1-A match grade and an M1-A built at the RTE shop at Quantico in the mid 80's. I love them and shot one for 10 years across the course. They are not bench rest rifles, they are modified battle rifles. Reliably scoping one can be a challenge, they can easily be damaged with high pressure loads and require the use of a narrow selection of powders as already pointed out.
With all that said, mine are keepers and get shot because they are so damn neat to shoot. A minute to minute and a half rifle will clean a high power target in capable hands. If you would be satisfied with that accuracy level and accept their limitations go for it.

BTW, a number of years ago a highly modified M1-A ,converted to .243 I believe, and shot by a very successful shooter surprised a lot of match rifle shooters at Camp Perry but that is not the norm and it was the result of a lot of experimentation and desire to make it work.

 

[chkunz]

I have been shooting the M1A since the early 1980s and shot master class scores and got a distinguished badge with it. But it is not a tack driver and that is why we have such a big target to shoot at. The AMU developed the accurizing techniques that get the most out of the gun. Look at the target dimensions and the scores that have been shot with the M1A, it is not a 1 MOA gun. To get the most accuracy potential you will need to find a gunsmith who knows how to do the AMU accuracy techniques, there are still a few old guys that can do this but not many.

 

[USMCDOC]

Well I'm one of those old guys who cut their teeth on a M1-A. Back in the day 1/12 twist was favored shooting 168SMK's, IMR-4895 or 4064 powder, Lake City or Winchester brass and Winchester primers. Tried Federal Gold Match ammo, my rifle didn't like it. Pay attention to above posts ^^^^^^ hot loads will ruin your rifle pretty quick. A M1A tuned by a good smith is probably a 3/4 - 1in gun if you do your part. As for a 1K rifle....well there are better choices. 168 gr Bullets are not a good choice for 1K. 175-180 gr have better ballistics. Do not hot rod the M1-A, midrange loads and powders suitable for gas gun operation are the way to go.

Stood in Hook Boutin's shop one day and watched the man take a plain jane M1 Garand and turn it into a 3/4 moa games rifle.. before he started, the best that rifle would do was 2 moa

 

[johara1]

I don't know but i sure saw 1min. of angle at 1000 yds. from an M14 with irons so go figure up close. That's what they would do before the 70's....... jim

 

[chkunz]

To answer your questions more specifically.

The M1A is best glass bedded for accuracy using the process developed by the AMU and similar to what was done for the M1 Garand. I never knew of anyone trying to free float an M1A barrel.

With the rifle and ammo you are considering expect 2 to 3 MOA at best, three ten shot groups will answer the question (most folks shoot three shot groups until they get one that they like and then quote that result). You can probably improve on this some with hand loads with IMR 4895 and 168 SMKs but lower your expectations.

I do not think it is realistic to expect this to be a 1000 yard gun, probably also disappointing at 600 yards depending on what scores you expect to shoot. As stated above the gun is not suited for the mounting of a scope.

Also stated above is the caution on hand loads, the gas system is designed around the burn rate of IMR 4895 and slower powders will cause damage to the gun. I would also be careful with factory ammo for the same reason.

With the right ammo and realistic expectations it is a fun gun to shoot.

 

[johara1]

To answer your questions more specifically.

The M1A is best glass bedded for accuracy using the process developed by the AMU and similar to what was done for the M1 Garand. I never knew of anyone trying to free float an M1A barrel.

With the rifle and ammo you are considering expect 2 to 3 MOA at best, three ten shot groups will answer the question (most folks shoot three shot groups until they get one that they like and then quote that result). You can probably improve on this some with hand loads with IMR 4895 and 168 SMKs but lower your expectations.

I do not think it is realistic to expect this to be a 1000 yard gun, probably also disappointing at 600 yards depending on what scores you expect to shoot. As stated above the gun is not suited for the mounting of a scope.

Also stated above is the caution on hand loads, the gas system is designed around the burn rate of IMR 4895 and slower powders will cause damage to the gun. I would also be careful with factory ammo for the same reason.

With the right ammo and realistic expectations it is a fun gun to shoot.

Man, i have no idea where you get your information. I sure seen a lot of 10x cleans at 2-300 rapid and for sure at inter service 35 straight V's at 1000 is 1min of angle not 2-3min. of course they were built by USMC. jim

 

[Park ranger]

If you don't scope the rifle, you would be in the service rifle class. I have shot mine at 1000 ( national match) and did ok, not great. I was using the 185 juggernaut. I also have a vented gas plug.

I'd stay away from factory SST loads, as the powder may be a bit slow. Luckily the M1A doesn't have that real long open rod like a Garand. Look for 175 grain Federal Gold Medal if you don't reload.

 

[chkunz]

Man, i have no idea where you get your information. I sure seen a lot of 10x cleans at 2-300 rapid and for sure at inter service 35 straight V's at 1000 is 1min of angle not 2-3min. of course they were built by USMC. jim

The V ring at 1000 was 20 inches, 2 MOA.

 

[nfhjr62]

Purchased a loaded M1A some 20 years ago came with a SS barrel e-mailed Springfield as to what i had, the barrel was a Wilson 1/11 twist barrel since then had it rear luged and glassed went from a 2moa to a 3/4 moa afterward.

 

[chkunz]

Man, i have no idea where you get your information. I sure seen a lot of 10x cleans at 2-300 rapid and for sure at inter service 35 straight V's at 1000 is 1min of angle not 2-3min. of course they were built by USMC. jim

Jim, with all due respect, I get my information from the same place that you do, local, state, regional and national completions over the past 40 years. The M14/M1A is a great rifle and fun to shoot and it dominated the service rifle category for many years, just like the 03 did in its day, then the M1 Garand. Now it has been replaced by the AR which is more accurate and easier to shoot. 10X cleans were not and still are not common with the M14. The best shooters with the best rifles have done it on occasion but it is rare. I try to be realistic when communicating with the new folks. If my experience is not consistent with yours I am ok with that and we can simply disagree with our perception of the accuracy of the M14. Best wishes and take care, Clyde.

 

[Scarface26]

Grizz,

If you're looking at the M1A for nostalgia, then go for it. If you're looking for an up to date .308 gas gun I'd look at an AR pattern. If you want versatility out to 1000, durability, and resale, go with a bolt gun and decent optics.
M1A is a great gun, though.

WRT AR's, Mark Larue's stuff is expensive, but good. With an AR there are a ton of aftermarket components to customize. Stock geometry is better (for me), try to scope the M1A and your head will stick up like a giraffe - scoping the AR is MUCH easier. Optics closer to the bore and you start off with your eye closer to the bore, etc.

That said, I have an M1A 1998 model I'm looking to part with to get a stake for some reloading gear. NM barrel standard stock, front and rear sights and trigger. However you go, best of luck and God bless you.

God bless America,

Scarface 26

 

[johara1]

Jim, with all due respect, I get my information from the same place that you do, local, state, regional and national completions over the past 40 years. The M14/M1A is a great rifle and fun to shoot and it dominated the service rifle category for many years, just like the 03 did in its day, then the M1 Garand. Now it has been replaced by the AR which is more accurate and easier to shoot. 10X cleans were not and still are not common with the M14. The best shooters with the best rifles have done it on occasion but it is rare. I try to be realistic when communicating with the new folks. If my experience is not consistent with yours I am ok with that and we can simply disagree with our perception of the accuracy of the M14. Best wishes and take care, Clyde.

I guess you need to go back a little more in time to get a better evaluation. What killed the M14 and M1 were politics, recoil and weight. Funny i seen the groups out the tunnels and they were sub 1/2 min. I remember when the m16 was not suitable for 600 yds and now 60 years latter it's ok. Now you can use a scope and you don't have to stand for rapid fire, we adjusted the game to the gun...... 10x cleans were rare? i sure seen a bunch on the same relay .....jim

 

[Rtheurer]

Just FYI. You still have to stand for Rapid in a EIC Match. (CMP Sanctioned matches)

 

[Rtheurer]

Hi,
I understand the concept of harmonics and how for long range accuracy, barrels need to be firmly bedded or free floated. In the case of the M1A, because of the stock, handguard and gas system, free floating is not really an option. I am guessing that is why the National Match rifles are bedded. Is this a correct assumption?

I am looking to get a new Loaded M1A, model MA9822. Without the bedding or Douglas barrel, what type of accuracy can I expect from this configuration with factory match ammo? Would this be a good 600yd iron sight config? Could I put a good scope on this config and have it be a good 1000yd gun? Are these expectations unrealistic?

Ammo I have been using is Hornady 165 SST Superformance. I am planning to start reloading soon

Thank you for your help
Grizz

I think what your going to find with the MA9822 model is that it will be a about a 1 to 2 MOA rifle. That is with a Good High Master shooter behind the gun. Shooting a 1000yd with the M1a that has not been worked over like the one your looking at is not going to be very satisfying. Shooting in a Match that is. Now if you just plinking at Rocks and stuff... Heck that might be just fine.
Quite a bit goes into a Match Grade M1A that is capable of shooting good scores in a Match. The Upgraded or Loaded model your looking at really is nothing more than a Rack Grade with Stainless Barrel on it and 1/2MOA windage sights and a narrow NM sight blade. With that being said I used one just like that for XTC that I had on loan from my older brother. After a Good Bedding job and working over the gas/oprod system and Added a Rear sight hood then sealing the wood stock with an epoxy a good trigger job by some one who knew what the heck they where doing.... It became a consistant 1 MOA rifle Maybe a little less.
Feeding it good ammo is pretty important which has been pointed out. Super Performance and M1A... Not sure I would do that if it was mine.

Russel

 

[johara1]

Just FYI. You still have to stand for Rapid in a EIC Match. (CMP Sanctioned matches)

I guess they still use a scope? That takes the old guys out the rapid fire matches then. jim

 

[johara1]

I think what your going to find with the MA9822 model is that it will be a about a 1 to 2 MOA rifle. That is with a Good High Master shooter behind the gun. Shooting a 1000yd with the M1a that has not been worked over like the one your looking at is not going to be very satisfying. Shooting in a Match that is. Now if you just plinking at Rocks and stuff... Heck that might be just fine.
Quite a bit goes into a Match Grade M1A that is capable of shooting good scores in a Match. The Upgraded or Loaded model your looking at really is nothing more than a Rack Grade with Stainless Barrel on it and 1/2MOA windage sights and a narrow NM sight blade. With that being said I used one just like that for XTC that I had on loan from my older brother. After a Good Bedding job and working over the gas/oprod system and Added a Rear sight hood then sealing the wood stock with an epoxy a good trigger job by some one who knew what the heck they where doing.... It became a consistant 1 MOA rifle Maybe a little less.
Feeding it good ammo is pretty important which has been pointed out. Super Performance and M1A... Not sure I would do that if it was mine.

Russel

What do you think an off the shelf AR will do with ball ammo? I shot DCM M1's with ball ammo shoot over 500 not great i know, but bone cold stock....... jim