• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

lugs galling on BAT MB bolt

Bert said:
I wouldn't be so quick to throw anyone under the buss they assume anyone that spends that kind of money on an action knows how to take care of it. It doesn't take long on this site to realise that there aren't any of the custom actions that guys are buying that they aren't happy with. Get the lugs fixed and move on with what ever grease the manufacture says.

Yup!! ;)

I do have to chuckle reading your post, as you are comparing yourself to the guy who used the lawnmower to trim his hedge.... :D

But it sure sounds like your shooting pretty dang good.. Keep up the good work..

If you have questions, ask. Lots of brain trust & experience here to bail a guy out.

Rod
 
Ron:
Your Bat just won it's 5th. straight match and you want to start making changes? ::)
Sounding to me like you better leave well enough alone. ;)
Lube the lugs, load more ammo and don't sweat the small stuff. Good job. 8)
 
I took photos of the galling to send to BAT. All surfaces look about the same. As I stated before, it has not affected gun performance, but I am concerned that if left untreated, it will get worse. Will just changing to the proper lube and using it frequently stop the galling from getting any worse?

I did not wipe the grease from the bolt before I took the photo. It is quite translucent, but if you look close you can see a gob of it in the right corner of the lug. I'm still surprised that this happened in spite of generous lube, even if it was not the best choice.
 

Attachments

  • BatGalling2.jpg
    BatGalling2.jpg
    177.7 KB · Views: 789
From what I have heard from one of the BEST gunsmiths in the country, make sure you use a grease that has some moly in it for your lugs. I have tried Mobil 1 red synthetic and was not happy with it on my BAT action.

One of the benchrest suppliers has a purple grease that is good also.

OH and those bolt and receiver lugs look UGLY!!!!

I would also recommend greasing them more often than every 50 rds also. I shoot short range BR and clean after every target and lube them every time. I would try lubing them every time you take the bolt out. Remember just a small amount of grease but a lot more often.

Joe Hynes
 
"The cumulative wealth of knowledge frequenting this site is invaluable and is where I have been asking my questions for a while now."

Perhaps why one should contribute to keep this site operational? ::)
 
zfastmalibu said:
This is what Bat recommended to me a few months ago. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/573734/mil-comm-tw25b-gun-grease-1-1-2-oz-tube Its seems really thin.

I have received 2 actions from Bat within the last 3 months, and both came with a small sample of the above grease.

But I see from the Midway ad that this has been discontinued from the manufacture ???
 
timeout said:
"The cumulative wealth of knowledge frequenting this site is invaluable and is where I have been asking my questions for a while now."

Perhaps why one should contribute to keep this site operational? ::)

Wholeheartedly agree, and have done so quite some time ago.
 
Bruce Thom himself replied to my e-mail about the galling. If he gives permission, I will post it entirely. In the meantime, here are three quotes.

"As the lugs have 100% contact when they leave here the lug grease really has no place to stay as you close the bolt it wipes itself off."

"I doubt the grease you were using contributed to the galling – I have used many types and they all work."

"I would say either snug cases or a bit of dirt or powder residue dropped in there and started a small gall, and it just compounded it self from there."


One person above mentioned brass tightness, and that is what Bruce emphasized most. It makes sense from a physics standpoint. If the case is tight in the slightest, that compounds the force exerted against the lugs tremendously. The problem is, I never did that. Almost all cases were new or once fired (600 6BR) or fully resized (800 30BR).

He did agree that the solution is to get the surfaces re-cut, but he can compensate on the barrel seat so the barrels do not have to be re-done.

Ron
 
Anti seize purpose is to facilitate removal of parts (usually screwed together) that will have to be separated after a period of time. While they of course, are a lubricant in the widest definition there use would be used, for example,for applying on steel spark plug threads inserted into aluminum heads. There are at least a dozen or more types of anti seize made for many different purposes. The barrel threads being screwed into the receiver would be one such usage, (stopping corrosion,galvanic action,etc) allowing removal of the barrel after a period of time.
There are a number of fine lubricants made for bolt lugs. There are some made expressly for various stainless steels. So you want to look for them. Stainless by nature, is more prone to galling than higher carbon content steel, . Avoid any one that says "soaks into", "absorbed by", or somehow gets 'into' the steel. Steel is comprised of crystals...there are NO pores to 'soak' into or enter.
 
M-61- Apparently the Mil Comm Products Co., and the US military feel otherwise. i.e. : that metals do, in fact, have the ability to retain lubricants at the microscopic level. Although I have not used their products on any of my equipment to date, I have operated bolt actions so treated and I was very impressed at their ability to reduce friction over long periods of time. This is not to say that I would replace a good bolt grease with Mil Comm. for a custom bolt gun used in BR. I would use it for a big game rifle where grease has it's downsides.
 
LHSmith: I don't think it is a matter of agreeing rather a matter of "adherence". There is no question certain lubes adhere better than others mainly as result of purpose. Lube for a motorcycle chain would be an example of "Adherence" being highly desirable, therefore chain lubes are made to 'hang on'.
Unlike most mechanical items, BR rifles are probably highly maintained, cleaned, and serviced. Therefore longevity of the lube opposed to how well it preforms is a mute point. The correct lube is the first choice.
 
Over the years I have used a variety of greases (as distinct from bolt lubes) that were sold by specialty suppliers, such as Sinclair, for the purpose of lubricating action bolts. They have all worked. One was a little stiff in cold weather, but they all did the job, including those instances when cases were on the tight side. It really isn't all that difficult. Open your Sinclair catalog, or look at it on line, and order some bolt grease. I apply it, in a thin film, to the back of my actions' lugs every time that I clean, and a little more heavily to cocking cams at the same time. I have never had a problem. The other issue is keeping lug recesses, particularly the bottom one, free of abrasive debris. I have a Sinclair too that was specially designed for this job.
 
I have been using the "TM Solution" bolt lube on my Rem 700 action (chambered in 6BR) and have absolutely zero problems. But, with that said, my first custom action rifle is a new, stainless steel, unfired (waiting for stock to be finished) Bat MB with a Broughton bbl chambered in .308 Win, and now I'm very concerned about using the proper bolt lube. The photos posted of the galled lugs has gotten me worried.
 
lrgoodger said:
Bruce Thom himself replied to my e-mail about the galling. If he gives permission, I will post it entirely. In the meantime, here are three quotes.

"As the lugs have 100% contact when they leave here the lug grease really has no place to stay as you close the bolt it wipes itself off."

"I doubt the grease you were using contributed to the galling – I have used many types and they all work."

"I would say either snug cases or a bit of dirt or powder residue dropped in there and started a small gall, and it just compounded it self from there."


One person above mentioned brass tightness, and that is what Bruce emphasized most. It makes sense from a physics standpoint. If the case is tight in the slightest, that compounds the force exerted against the lugs tremendously. The problem is, I never did that. Almost all cases were new or once fired (600 6BR) or fully resized (800 30BR).

He did agree that the solution is to get the surfaces re-cut, but he can compensate on the barrel seat so the barrels do not have to be re-done.

Ron

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/320634/shooters-choice-all-weather-high-tech-gun-grease-10cc-syringe

Ive been using this grease for years on two Bat actions and other actions and never seen anything like whats pictured. I think sometime Us "Guys" that are in the pursuit of precision accuracy tend to overthink alot of stuff.
You got three Quotes from the man himself. That make total sense.
Me personally would get it fixed. Cause Iam one of the "Guys"! LOL
Richard
 
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/320634/shooters-choice-all-weather-high-tech-gun-grease-10cc-syringe

Ive been using this grease for years on two Bat actions and other actions and never seen anything like whats pictured. I think sometime Us "Guys" that are in the pursuit of precision accuracy tend to overthink alot of stuff.
You got three Quotes from the man himself. That make total sense.
Me personally would get it fixed. Cause Iam one of the "Guys"! LOL
Richard
[/quote]

Ya, I'm definitely 'one of the guys', and I have the first place wood to prove it. Bruce said he would fix it for $150, which I think is very reasonable considering this is an $1800 action. I told him I was going to "knock the high spots off the galling" because that was like "removing burs from a crankshaft journal". It's the burs that tear up the bearings, not the pits. That will get me through the season and then I will send it back to him to work on while we sit out the frozen winter here in Michigan. Bruce is sending me a sample tube of the mil-comm product that he recommends to use in the meantime.
 
Bruce Thom's complete response

Bruce gave me permission to post his responses. Here is our complete conversation. He gave very thorough answers, but then accused me of complaining by taking it to the forums. He must not have noticed the dates on the posts or emails, nor the fact that I TOLD him in the first message that I was posting on accurate shooter. I was just asking questions and trying to be as thorough as he was.
Ron

From: Ron Goodger [mailto:lrgoodger@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 6:02 PM
To: batmachine@earthlink.net
Subject: lugs galling



Sirs,

I purchased a BAT MB action (serial number MB284) from Bruno Shooters back in May and I have a problem with it. I have been very happy with the action until now because it has been winning match after match for me. The action has about 1400 rounds on it now and at about 900 rounds I noticed the bolt lugs were starting to gall. I clean and lube the bolt (and gun) every 50 rounds, so I started applying extra grease to the lugs in the hope that it wouldn't get any worse, but it did anyway. Please find attached photos of two of the four surfaces.

I posted a question about this on accurate-shooter and the consensus seems to be that the Tetra gun grease my local reloading supplies gunshop recommended is inadequate. That may be, but I'm surprised that the metal galled in spite of regular lubrication.

My limited understanding of gunsmithing is that if these surfaces are cleaned up by re-cutting them, that will mean setting back both barrels I use with the action to adjust headspace. That seems like an expensive proposition. The action still cycles fine and accuracy seems to be un-affected, so I'm wondering if there is some other solution to this issue. Will the galling stay as it is if I just start using the proper lube, or will it continue to get worse anyway? If I return the action to you at the end of October when the shooting season is over, can you fix this? What is your recommendation?

I am planning to get Montana X-Treme gun grease for future use. Will that be adequate?

It would have been nice to have gotten some paperwork with the action that explained necessary precautions needed to prevent galling if it is a known issue with stainless.

Best regards,
Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Thom [mailto:batmachine@earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 10:37 PM
To: 'Ron Goodger'
Subject: RE: lugs galling

Ron

Once galling starts it compounds itself and gets worse.

As soon as you see ANY galling it needs to be taken care of or you will have the mess you now see.

As the lugs have 100% contact when they leave here the lug grease really has no place to stay as you close the bolt it wipes itself off.

I obviously have many rifles built on my actions – and have had them for years and many have wore out multiple barrels.

The ONLY time I have ever started to gall lugs was when I let my brass get snug and kept shooting it that way because I did not have time to make new brass. This has only happened to me on two of my actions and I cleaned them up immediately at the match with some careful stoning and then lapped the lugs with JB and have not had any problems since then.

My recommendation to all users of any action that is made with 100% lug contact including trued up Remington’s is to make sure you do not close your bolt on tight cases, or you will gall the lugs. I also recommend after cleaning the bolt and lubing the lugs, that you close the bolt with the trigger held back so that you can actually get the grease all the way across the lugs instead of wiping it off the first time you close the bolt.

Our stainless actions use a chrome moly bolt body, so it is not stainless on stainless. I have looked at many Kelby actions, and trued remingtons, that are galled up just like yours and the lugs on their actions are chrome moly in the receiver and the bolt – so galling is not exclusive to stainless body actions.

As far as the grease we recommend – which I am pretty sure we still include in every action shipped( I do not do the shipping anymore) – but it may not have made it to you from Bruno, we have had the best results with a products called Miltec. Send me your address and we can send you some.

As far as fixing your action I am afraid we would have to do exactly as you described. The whole surface of both bolt and receiver is galled – as you can see from your pictures – good job by the way on the pictures, not easy to get a good picture down in the receiver!

I can keep the headspace very close to what it was (.001 or less) by dusting the face of the action where the barrel tenon seats, the same amount that comes off the lugs. So setting your barrels back would not be needed. New brass might be needed if I end up on the tight side.

I doubt the grease you were using contributed to the galling – I have used many types and they all work. The stuff we recommend now is just less messy, and does not pick up dirt as much and seems to actually get into the metal and stay there longer. I would say either snug cases or a bit of dirt or powder residue dropped in there and started a small gall, and it just compounded it self from there.

Regards,

Bruce Thom

From: Ron Goodger [mailto:lrgoodger@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 5:49 PM
To: 'Bruce Thom'
Subject: RE: lugs galling

Bruce,

I appreciate your prompt and thorough response more than you know.

I find it interesting that you place so much emphasis on snug brass. This MB action started life with the 6BR paririe dog barrel on it in early June and I ran 600 rounds of new Lapua brass through that barrel during load development and the hunt. I know none of it was loaded more than twice. When I got home from the hunt I screwed the 6BR barrel off and put on the 30BR barrel for a summer of competitions. It just so happens that I normally neck size only until the brass gets tight, but in this case I full length resized from the start, so I KNOW there has never been tight brass run through this action.

Ironically, I've been running tight brass through the only other custom action I have (not a BAT) for 3400 rounds and it is showing no signs of galling. I shall cease that practice immediately, however, because what you say is sound from a physics standpoint.

I understand the galling compounding itself. It's kind of like burs on a crankshaft journal. Pits don't hurt the bearings - the burs do. I'm thinking I need to hit the high points on the galled surfaces just enough to take the sharp edges off without changing headspace. That should get me through the season, and then I can send you the action for repair.

I really don't have a clue what caused this issue, although there was one windy day in Wyoming when there was fine sand in the air and it did get in the action. I had to stop shooting and clean it when I felt the bolt tightening up. The first signs of galling did not show up for at least 800 rounds AFTER that, so I doubt that was the root cause. I always inspected and lubed the lugs when I cleaned, and it was fine for a long, long time after Wyoming.

What would be the cost of getting this fixed when I send in the action?

Ron

BTW, thanks for the compliments on the photos. It did take a while and several tries to get the receiver shot. Here is the address for the bolt grease.


Ron Goodger

(redacted)
(redacted)


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Thom [mailto:batmachine@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 10:53 AM
To: 'Ron Goodger'
Subject: RE: lugs galling

Ron

The reason I place emphasis on snug brass is that has been my personal experience.

The cost for cleaning it up will be $150.00

Regards,

Bruce Thom


From: Ron Goodger [mailto:lrgoodger@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 3:58 PM
To: 'Bruce Thom'
Subject: RE: lugs galling

Bruce,

What are the Rockwell hardness figures for the bolt and the receiver? Do you order the stock pre-hardened (if so, do you check every shipment or just spot check), or do you have it hardened after the pieces are cut?

Perhaps something slipped through.

Ron


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Thom [mailto:batmachine@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 1:39 PM
To: 'Ron Goodger'
Subject: RE: lugs galling

Bolts are 43 to 46 rc – after we rough turn, the blanks are heat treated, certified by the heat treater and then we check them in our shop to verify.

Receiver bodies are 36 to 38 Rc, heat treated in our shop and tested.

NOTHING slips thru heat treat testing. If the heat treating is not done properly the action will not be safe to use, which is our first concern. The hardness we have selected are based on maximizing the materials toughness and creating a hardness difference between them to minimize galling tendencies.

It seems you would like to find a reason other than tight cases, or dirt or lack of maintenance for your galling.

Stainless steel receiver bodies are not really the best choice for building an action that will not have at least some tendency to gall. Stainless in itself has tendency to gall due to the high chrome and nickel content. 17-4 is one of the better stainless steels to resist galling, but it still has that tendency.

We did not just start building actions yesterday and we did a lot of research when we started building actions 18 + years ago. For what people want – stainless steel - there are not a lot of options to improve the situation. There are some extremely expensive and difficult to machine stainless steels – actually they are not classed as stainless, they are called heat resistant alloys. Between the cost and the difficulty of machining these the actions cost would increase at least 75% more, and the possibility of galling would not be completely eliminated.

If you want to eliminate galling then you have to be willing to have a nitrided action and it is going to be black and cost you $100.00 more.

A small – very small improvement can be had over stainless by ordering a chrome moly receiver body instead of stainless – again it will be blued.

If you would like to have your receiver nitrided when you send it back too clean it up we can do that. The cost is $100.00 for nitriding. If you use your rifle in dirty conditions where you do not have the opportunity to clean it I would recommend this.

I see you have now taken your complaints to the forums, feel free to copy verbatim anything I told you in these emails – in its entirety – do not pick and choose sentences if you are going to post it. I would prefer the info be shared for others benefit.

Regards,

Bruce Thom
 
When Bruce and I had a galling risk discussion several months ago Bruce recommended that I go the nitride route on my BAT action as well, and then consider Ionbond for the bolt. He also offered to send them out for me to the facilities that he uses for these processes (the name escapes me currently).

I got the nitride and Ionbond. The bolt and action are a matte black.

Jeffvn
 
"
*****
Posts: 303
View Profile
Email
Personal Message (Offline)







lugs galling on BAT MB bolt

« Reply #15 on: 02:13 AM, 09/03/12 »


Reply


Quote



Maybe I should have just used the anti-seize for bolt lube. The machinist at Pierce Engineering emphasized several times when he chambered my barrels that I put plenty of anti-seize on the barrel threads every time I swapped it. He said if I didn't, the stainless threads would seize and I would never get the barrel out. I never thought about the same scenario applying to the bolt lugs.

Now, I feel like I was let down on this by TWO sources (three if you include Pierce). I'm not a machinist, so I didn't know this except for what Pierce told me. When I received the action, there was no paper work at all except for the sales slip. There should have been a document entitled 'Care and Feeding of a Precision Stainless Steel Action' (or something similar) from BAT. Lacking that, Bruno Shooters should have said something (I'm sure Bruno knows this).

Having worked for large corporations who are acutely aware of liability and knowing the story behind the warning label on power mowers (someone actually picked up a running mower and tried to trim a hedge with it), I would have thought notes would be included with gun parts detailing things you shouldn't do, like using the wrong lube. I guess galled lugs are not enough of a safety issue.

Thanks for all of the replies. I will definitely be contacting BAT about this and I will post their response.

Ron"

Seriously? You need someone to tell you to use a good lube on your 1400$ action. Wow!! I would say you stuck a case at one time or another " we have all done this" and you didn't get it all cleaned out. Ive been there and done that myself. Good luck.
Some lessons in life cost you some cash. Really good lessons in life cost you a lot of cash! Lee
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,889
Messages
2,205,444
Members
79,189
Latest member
Kydama1337
Back
Top