Lou Murdica's process

[marchx]

I came across this article

Top Benchrest Shooter Lou Murdica Talks With LoadDevelopment.com - LoadDevelopment.com

To get to the real world truth about precision rifle reloading, we talk with pro shooter Lou Murdica.

www.loaddevelopment.com

I find it very informative. What does he mean "Don’t over size your brass."?
What do you think about his load development process:

1. I work up my load using a powder that fills the case.
2. I start with bullet making almost a square mark from the lands of the barrel
3. Then I load the powder on the light side and shoot 2 shot groups working up in powder 1/2 grain at a time until I start to see pressure signs.
4. Then I look at the 2 shoot groups and shoot 3 shot groups of the loads that look good.
5. Then I shoot 5 shot groups again from those that look good.
6. I take the best group and then back off the lands .003 at a time and see if it can improve groups."

I don't quite understand why he is doing no. 4&5 with a bullet in the lands. Isn't that too risky? Why doesn't he start at at least t thau off?
I cannot seat bullets to exactly the same length I always have 1-2 thau variation. If I seat the bullets 0-5 thau off the lands does this 2 thau variation in CBTO has bigger impact on velocity (pressure differences) than if I seated my bullets 10-20 thau off the lands?
I am looking at 100m-300m accuracy.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Im taking a guess but if he starts in the lands and works up his loads to max he wont have any problems later on as that is theoretically the most pressure he will encounter or that is why I do it anyway

 

[jimmymac]

What he is doing is pretty common amongst SR BR shooters. Lots of guys jam their bullets hard and go through a very similar process.

 

[BoydAllen]

First of all, by not over sizing brass he is probably referring to a couple of things. Standard, one piece dies combined with factory chambers reduce the size of case well under what they need to be for proper function, and necks are typically sized down too far so that when the expander ball is pulled back through, the pull exceeds the elastic limit of the brass in the shoulder causing it to stretch slightly, and not evenly. This cocks the neck relative to the case body and is a major source of crooked ammunition.

If on the other hand you use a die that only slightly reduces the diameters all along the body and of the neck, set properly for shoulder bump, if needed, you will have straighter, better fitting ammunition that has a much better chance of being accurate, and your brass will last a lot longer.

There is a common misconception that has been going around for a long time that loading into the lands is somehow dangerous. While it does produce more pressure than if the bullet jumps a bit, by starting well down below maximum load, and working up in small increments, that would depend on case size, you will not have a problem as long as you pay close attention to pressure signs and stop when they appear. I have always gotten better accuracy loading into the lands, and I work up loads pretty much as Lou does, with slight variations.

Another thing, Lou loads at his "range" which is a state of the art tunnel, and at short range group matches, which is standard practice. This allows him to work up accurate loads rather quickly, and while you may not own a tunnel, I recommend that you get set up to load at the range, and while you are at it, figure out some sort of equipment to see what the wind is doing on a real time basis at several points between your shooting bench and the target. That won't be as good as a tunnel but is is a lot better than no flags.

As part of my shooting hobby I enjoy helping people learn to load and shoot better. One of the things that have found that holds people back is their reluctance to change what they are doing. Lou has a long and successful history in benchrest, as well as having notable success in F-Class, particularly considering the time he has been competing in that sport. He shoots and tests with the very best equipment available. If you do what he suggests to the letter it will work a lot better than if you pick and choose based on less expert advice and your own preconceptions. I have known him for many years and I always learn new worthwhile information when we talk. Besides that, he is a great guy.

Good luck with your quest for better accuracy. It is what I call a weakest link thing, with many important details that cannot be ignored if you want the best results possible, but if you enjoy learning new things and experimenting, I think that you will enjoy all of it.

One more thing, it is a lot easier to shoot all shots in the same condition if the number of shots is small, and if two well done shots look bad, adding more cannot fix that. Once you have things sorted at that level, then you can do further testing with the most promising loads. In reality the only way to tell if two shots have been shot in the same wind is to be shooting over some sort of flags, either store bought or home made.

If someone hands me a suitable (for the cartridge and bullet weight) powder that I have not used, and I can come up with a safe starting load, and a bullet that is known to be accurate but which I have not tried, working at the range the most time it will take me to work up a good load with my best rifle is perhaps two hours, assuming favorable wind. Contrast this with the tales you read on the internet. I will at most have fired 40 rounds. probably less. People are making this much more difficult than it has to be.

 

[1shot]

Well put @BoydAllen,
I also start "in the lands" because it's the worst case scenario in terms of pressure. Once I see signs of pressure, I will seat the bullet deeper in the case, and let the target tell me what to do next. Most of the time, I will have to tweak the powder charge to get in the center of the node or to reach a target velocity, but changes are small and I never change two variables at once. This has process worked well for me for a lot of years, but I try and stay receptive to different ideas.
I hope this helps,
Lloyd

 

[marchx]

Thank you guys. I don't own a tunnel and I cannot bring my reloading stuff to the range. What do you think about a method which popular on snipershide?
You work up a load to a certain velocity and just play with a seating depth for accuracy? It seems to simple to be true...

 

[boltfluter]

First of all, by not over sizing brass he is probably referring to a couple of things. Standard, one piece dies combined with factory chambers reduce the size of case well under what they need to be for proper function, and necks are typically sized down too far so that when the expander ball is pulled back through, the pull exceeds the elastic limit of the brass in the shoulder causing it to stretch slightly, and not evenly. This cocks the neck relative to the case body and is a major source of crooked ammunition.

If on the other hand you use a die that only slightly reduces the diameters all along the body and of the neck, set properly for shoulder bump, if needed, you will have straighter, better fitting ammunition that has a much better chance of being accurate, and your brass will last a lot longer.

There is a common misconception that has been going around for a long time that loading into the lands is somehow dangerous. While it does produce more pressure than if the bullet jumps a bit, by starting well down below maximum load, and working up in small increments, that would depend on case size, you will not have a problem as long as you pay close attention to pressure signs and stop when they appear. I have always gotten better accuracy loading into the lands, and I work up loads pretty much as Lou does, with slight variations.

Another thing, Lou loads at his "range" which is a state of the art tunnel, and at short range group matches, which is standard practice. This allows him to work up accurate loads rather quickly, and while you may not own a tunnel, I recommend that you get set up to load at the range, and while you are at it, figure out some sort of equipment to see what the wind is doing on a real time basis at several points between your shooting bench and the target. That won't be as good as a tunnel but is is a lot better than no flags.

As part of my shooting hobby I enjoy helping people learn to load and shoot better. One of the things that have found that holds people back is their reluctance to change what they are doing. Lou has a long and successful history in benchrest, as well as having notable success in F-Class, particularly considering the time he has been competing in that sport. He shoots and tests with the very best equipment available. If you do what he suggests to the letter it will work a lot better than if you pick and choose based on less expert advice and your own preconceptions. I have known him for many years and I always learn new worthwhile information when we talk. Besides that, he is a great guy.

Good luck with your quest for better accuracy. It is what I call a weakest link thing, with many important details that cannot be ignored if you want the best results possible, but if you enjoy learning new things and experimenting, I think that you will enjoy all of it.

One more thing, it is a lot easier to shoot all shots in the same condition if the number of shots is small, and if two well done shots look bad, adding more cannot fix that. Once you have things sorted at that level, then you can do further testing with the most promising loads. In reality the only way to tell if two shots have been shot in the same wind is to be shooting over some sort of flags, either store bought or home made.

If someone hands me a suitable (for the cartridge and bullet weight) powder that I have not used, and I can come up with a safe starting load, and a bullet that is known to be accurate but which I have not tried, working at the range the most time it will take me to work up a good load with my best rifle is perhaps two hours, assuming favorable wind. Contrast this with the tales you read on the internet. I will at most have fired 40 rounds. probably less. People are making this much more difficult than it has to be.

This advice is worth it's weight in gold! I do basically the same thing. One thing all my rifles have in common, is they all shoot there very best with bullets into the rifling. Many times with startling results! Great response Boyd!

Paul

 

[AlNyhus]

What do you think about a method which popular on snipershide?
You work up a load to a certain velocity and just play with a seating depth for accuracy? It seems to simple to be true...

Too simple to be true? In the Tactical rifle 'Play Army' world, it's adequate. Like the ridiculous OCW method, it 'works' only because the bar isn't set real high.

The difference in Tactical rifle accuracy requirements and tuning.....versus a real Benchrest rifle (with a capital B) ....is like comparing an NHRA Pro Stock car and kid down the street that has a fart can on his Honda.

Honestly, if you're not set up to load at the range, real Benchrest tuning practices are neither applicable, achievable or likely needed for your accuracy requirements.

Good shootin'. - Al

 

[DaveTooley]

I've used the same basic process for 30 years when tuning up a rifle regardless of the intended purpose. I go to the range with one powder and 3 or 4 different bullets. Powder has NEVER made a poor shooting rifle perform better. Powder has NEVER improved the marriage between the barrel and bullet. I know in short order which bullet/s the rifle likes. I start with each bullet touching the lands and go up on the powder charge until I see pressure signs on the brass. That's the worst case for generating pressure. I shoot two shot groups with seating depth changes. If that bullet doesn't show me anything I move on. When I find something that performs well I'll shot 3 shot groups if it's a hunting rifle and several, more than 3, 5 shot groups if it's a target rifle to confirm. An afternoon at the range and I'm done.

 

[CharlieNC]

Marchx a series of interviews with Lou on Eric Cortina YouTube channel is very clear on the aspects you questioned. Watch those to better understand his approach and logic. Plus trust Dave's advice not to waste time trying to make a bullet shoot which your barrel quickly tells you it doesn't like.

 

[ATFIV]

AlNyhus, Thank you for telling it like it is!

 

[jelenko]

Too simple to be true? In the Tactical rifle 'Play Army' world, it's adequate. Like the ridiculous OCW method, it 'works' only because the bar isn't set real high.

The difference in Tactical rifle accuracy requirements and tuning.....versus a real Benchrest rifle (with a capital B) ....is like comparing an NHRA Pro Stock car and kid down the street that has a fart can on his Honda.

Honestly, if you're not set up to load at the range, real Benchrest tuning practices are neither applicable, achievable or likely needed for your accuracy requirements.

Good shootin'. - Al

Very interesting. My 'accuracy' shooting is done from prone with a sling - 1/2 - 3/4 MOA is great for what I need.
Can I really choose an arbitrary velocity and tune with seating depth to get that type of accuracy?
Currently, I'm using GRT to pick a starting load and, then, if that load isn't sufficient, do a 'ladder' above and below.
Thanks!

 

[JEFFPPC]

Thank you guys. I don't own a tunnel and I cannot bring my reloading stuff to the range. What do you think about a method which popular on snipershide?
You work up a load to a certain velocity and just play with a seating depth for accuracy? It seems to simple to be true...

Snipers hide is not benchrest accuracy......end of story. Starting with a square mark, doing some preliminary powder charge testing then backing the bullet into the case .002 at a time has worked well for me. I start with all 2 shot groups also. If both bullets go in the same hole I shot a second 2 shot group. If it repeats I am on to something. As I have stated before when you ask a loading question and don't identity your shooting discipline you limit the accuracy (for you) of the answers you get. Do you need to sort bullets or weigh primers to have a half inch gun, no you don't. Do you need to way primers for short range benchrest, no you don't. Do you need to do these steps for long range paper, yes you do.

 

[AckleymanII]

First of all, by not over sizing brass he is probably referring to a couple of things. Standard, one piece dies combined with factory chambers reduce the size of case well under what they need to be for proper function, and necks are typically sized down too far so that when the expander ball is pulled back through, the pull exceeds the elastic limit of the brass in the shoulder causing it to stretch slightly, and not evenly. This cocks the neck relative to the case body and is a major source of crooked ammunition.

If on the other hand you use a die that only slightly reduces the diameters all along the body and of the neck, set properly for shoulder bump, if needed, you will have straighter, better fitting ammunition that has a much better chance of being accurate, and your brass will last a lot longer.

There is a common misconception that has been going around for a long time that loading into the lands is somehow dangerous. While it does produce more pressure than if the bullet jumps a bit, by starting well down below maximum load, and working up in small increments, that would depend on case size, you will not have a problem as long as you pay close attention to pressure signs and stop when they appear. I have always gotten better accuracy loading into the lands, and I work up loads pretty much as Lou does, with slight variations.

Another thing, Lou loads at his "range" which is a state of the art tunnel, and at short range group matches, which is standard practice. This allows him to work up accurate loads rather quickly, and while you may not own a tunnel, I recommend that you get set up to load at the range, and while you are at it, figure out some sort of equipment to see what the wind is doing on a real time basis at several points between your shooting bench and the target. That won't be as good as a tunnel but is is a lot better than no flags.

As part of my shooting hobby I enjoy helping people learn to load and shoot better. One of the things that have found that holds people back is their reluctance to change what they are doing. Lou has a long and successful history in benchrest, as well as having notable success in F-Class, particularly considering the time he has been competing in that sport. He shoots and tests with the very best equipment available. If you do what he suggests to the letter it will work a lot better than if you pick and choose based on less expert advice and your own preconceptions. I have known him for many years and I always learn new worthwhile information when we talk. Besides that, he is a great guy.

Good luck with your quest for better accuracy. It is what I call a weakest link thing, with many important details that cannot be ignored if you want the best results possible, but if you enjoy learning new things and experimenting, I think that you will enjoy all of it.

One more thing, it is a lot easier to shoot all shots in the same condition if the number of shots is small, and if two well done shots look bad, adding more cannot fix that. Once you have things sorted at that level, then you can do further testing with the most promising loads. In reality the only way to tell if two shots have been shot in the same wind is to be shooting over some sort of flags, either store bought or home made.

If someone hands me a suitable (for the cartridge and bullet weight) powder that I have not used, and I can come up with a safe starting load, and a bullet that is known to be accurate but which I have not tried, working at the range the most time it will take me to work up a good load with my best rifle is perhaps two hours, assuming favorable wind. Contrast this with the tales you read on the internet. I will at most have fired 40 rounds. probably less. People are making this much more difficult than it has to be.

This post should be a sticky at the top of the Reloading section!

 

[10XSHOOTER]

The Houston Warehouse shooters all said their guns shot better, with the bullet touching or in the lands.
Almost as good as Lou's tunnel.

 

[AlNyhus]

Don't get me wrong...I've sat behind some very, very accurate tactical and tactical-ish rifles.

But the disciplines are so far removed from each other they might as well be Venus and Mars. You'd never tune a hunting or real-deal tactical rig the way you do a real Benchrest gun. You have to feed from a magazine, use commercially available bullets, be able extract a loaded round...ad nauseum.

Benchrest rifles (and some live varmint rifles) don't have those constraints. So, we get to tune them differently. Not good or bad...just different for the demands of the situation.

My workup with a Tactical or hunting rig is pretty much as Dave has outlined. Using wind flags (makes you look pretty smart pretty quickly), start with a known-good bullet and powder for the chambering and see what it shows you.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[marchx]

Marchx a series of interviews with Lou on Eric Cortina YouTube channel is very clear on the aspects you questioned. Watch those to better understand his approach and logic. Plus trust Dave's advice not to waste time trying to make a bullet shoot which your barrel quickly tells you it doesn't like.

I watched those videos. Lou seems like a really nice person. I am aware I am asking many questions proving my ignorance. I clearly miss a mentor in both Benchrest and reloading. My learning curve would look differently if I had some experience Benchrest shooters near me. Unfortunately, this is not the case. I appreciate your feedback guys.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Very interesting. My 'accuracy' shooting is done from prone with a sling - 1/2 - 3/4 MOA is great for what I need.
Can I really choose an arbitrary velocity and tune with seating depth to get that type of accuracy?
Currently, I'm using GRT to pick a starting load and, then, if that load isn't sufficient, do a 'ladder' above and below.
Thanks!

Erik Cortina made the comment in his "Chasing the lands is stupid" video, that seating depth can tune any load. However, he does state that this may not be the best or most accurate load.

 

[CharlieNC]

I watched those videos. Lou seems like a really nice person. I am aware I am asking many questions proving my ignorance. I clearly miss a mentor in both Benchrest and reloading. My learning curve would look differently if I had some experience Benchrest shooters near me. Unfortunately, this is not the case. I appreciate your feedback guys.

I would say you are smart to seek knowledge and understanding from the experts, which I am not. Unfortunately mentors are hard to find so keep asking!

 

[Webster]

Thank you guys. I don't own a tunnel and I cannot bring my reloading stuff to the range. What do you think about a method which popular on snipershide?
You work up a load to a certain velocity and just play with a seating depth for accuracy? It seems to simple to be true...

Depends on what you call accuracy. At major short range BR events they are trying to shoot 25 shot aggregates under 0.200".