Lot testing

[MUP]

With the discussion going on about lot testing and brand selection on the other thread it made me think of what you all consider "enough" testing per lot. Do you shoot 5 groups of 5 per each lot to determine the better lot, or 10 groups of 10 maybe? Just how much do you shoot this high priced ammo this day and time to determine if it's THE lot# for your rifle? Just to add to this discussion, I've been shooting 5 groups of 5 shots per lot# of each brand that has shown promise and letting the most consistent groupings get the nod. I welcome your expertise as I'm still basically a beginner in the .22 game.

 

[MUP]

Also I have 3 lots of Center X and, if I can get conditions right and get my groups in for each lot, there is a very small difference. I have those Center X lots now labeled 1,2, and 3.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

With the discussion going on about lot testing and brand selection on the other thread it made me think of what you all consider "enough" testing per lot. Do you shoot 5 groups of 5 per each lot to determine the better lot, or 10 groups of 10 maybe? Just how much do you shoot this high priced ammo this day and time to determine if it's THE lot# for your rifle? Just to add to this discussion, I've been shooting 5 groups of 5 shots per lot# of each brand that has shown promise and letting the most consistent groupings get the nod. I welcome your expertise as I'm still basically a beginner in the .22 game.

I used to use groups to test lots when you could. now I shoot a couple of groups then I will shoot a score target in my case the RBA target. I use this as the measure of how the lot shoots.

Lee

 

[grauhanen]

When lot testing some key things to keep in mind include the following.

First, wind conditions are very important. Many newer shoonless don't yet use wind flags or use them effectively. Therefore, if possible, shoot in absolutely calm conditions.

Why? Especially when winds are gusting, or switching directions, even a small amount of wind can move a standard velocity .22LR bullet enough to skew results. Every 1 mph difference in crosswind between one round and the next can cause .1" of wind drift at 50 yards.



Second, it's important to compare a sufficient amount of data (groups) to begin to approach having reliable data. That often means shooting enough rounds in a group and enough groups to reveal all or at least most of the variety of results with that ammo. It's much easier to shoot a very good five round group than it is to shoot a ten round group. It's much easier to shoot two good groups than it is to shoot more of them. More data (groups) are always better than fewer. Never let one or a few good groups seduce you into thinking the ammo is the one.

Third, it's important to do comparisons with as similar shooting set up as possible. For example, always use a stable bench or table. Use a good rest, always set up the same way. Ensure that the action screws are similarly torqued each time. Make sure that the hold on the rifle is always equal and consistent. Always make suree the barrel is seasoned. Don't rely on first shots from a clean bore.

 

[MUP]

Thanks for that detailed response grauhenen! And for that wind chart!

 

[VLNBYR]

In today's world and ammo situation I don't lot test at all. I buy everything I can and sort it out later. It isn't like if you make a poor choice you're condemned to shooting that lot for the rest of your life.

 

[USMCDOC]

In today's world and ammo situation I don't lot test at all. I buy everything I can and sort it out later. It isn't like if you make a poor choice you're condemned to shooting that lot for the rest of your life.

i save the stuff i buy that shoots great at 100 yards. all other stuff gets relegated to 50 yard duty or practice

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

When lot testing some key things to keep in mind include the following.

First, wind conditions are very important. Many newer shoonless don't yet use wind flags or use them effectively. Therefore, if possible, shoot in absolutely calm conditions.

Why? Especially when winds are gusting, or switching directions, even a small amount of wind can move a standard velocity .22LR bullet enough to skew results. Every 1 mph difference in crosswind between one round and the next can cause .1" of wind drift at 50 yards.



Second, it's important to compare a sufficient amount of data (groups) to begin to approach having reliable data. That often means shooting enough rounds in a group and enough groups to reveal all or at least most of the variety of results with that ammo. It's much easier to shoot a very good five round group than it is to shoot a ten round group. It's much easier to shoot two good groups than it is to shoot more of them. More data (groups) are always better than fewer. Never let one or a few good groups seduce you into thinking the ammo is the one.

Third, it's important to do comparisons with as similar shooting set up as possible. For example, always use a stable bench or table. Use a good rest, always set up the same way. Ensure that the action screws are similarly torqued each time. Make sure that the hold on the rifle is always equal and consistent. Always make suree the barrel is seasoned. Don't rely on first shots from a clean bore.

You forgot one very important thing. the rifle has to be capable of shooting otherwise test all you like!

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I stand by what I said, shooting for score is a good way to see how a lot shoots. groups have too many things that can skew the results such as missing a call on the condition. this target shot with a lot for the first time. to validate the shots of my misses were not the ammo I reshot them.
as USMCDOC knows this was the first time I shot this lot as I got it from him.

Lee

 

[grauhanen]

You forgot one very important thing. the rifle has to be capable of shooting otherwise test all you like!

Lee

Indeed. It's worth keeping in mind that important thing, even when it might seem to go without saying. If a rifle is not capable of shooting well consistently, it is hard to use as a gauge to measure any ammo.

 

[Gizmo60]

For lot testing, ten rounds are far too much as ten rounds close together can produce a large hole which gives no indication of true accuracy.

Five round groups starting off are better, then I drop to three rounds, three rounds touching good, several group’s of two in one and one touching then I’m interested.

As Lee says, once you narrow down some lots and tuner settings (if using a tuner) now shoot your competition target. Keep note of tens and X scored, consistency is the name of the game.

Lot testing takes time, your setup need to be the same for all ammo tested, you need near perfect weather conditions or the same conditions throughout your test, use wind flags, keep notes, ensure you test all the good well-known brands available, Eley Texex, Match, Team and (Club - training/practice rd), Lapua CX, Biathlon, RWS R50 and RWS SM, SK RM.

You must have time, patience and a good selection of ammo.

 

[grauhanen]

For lot testing, ten rounds are far too much as ten rounds close together can produce a large hole which gives no indication of true accuracy.

It's worth noting that at ammo testing facilities ten shot groups are standard. Only when a lot performs so poorly that all ten shots are not required to eliminate it are fewer rounds tested.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

For lot testing, ten rounds are far too much as ten rounds close together can produce a large hole which gives no indication of true accuracy.

Five round groups starting off are better, then I drop to three rounds, three rounds touching good, several group’s of two in one and one touching then I’m interested.

As Lee says, once you narrow down some lots and tuner settings (if using a tuner) now shoot your competition target. Keep note of tens and X scored, consistency is the name of the game.

Lot testing takes time, your setup need to be the same for all ammo tested, you need near perfect weather conditions or the same conditions throughout your test, use wind flags, keep notes, ensure you test all the good well-known brands available, Eley Texex, Match, Team and (Club - training/practice rd), Lapua CX, Biathlon, RWS R50 and RWS SM, SK RM.

You must have time, patience and a good selection of ammo.

Gizmo60,

If you are confident on how the rifle shoots. testing in not so perfect conditions will work too. if you can place shots with the correct calls on the conditions and they go, were you intended to have them without those what the heck shots, you will know if that lot is worth the trouble.
now tuning is a whole different story and you need to have near perfect conditions but lot testing.

Lee

 

[linekin]

I stand by what I said, shooting for score is a good way to see how a lot shoots. groups have too many things that can skew the results such as missing a call on the condition. this target shot with a lot for the first time. to validate the shots of my misses were not the ammo I reshot them.
as USMCDOC knows this was the first time I shot this lot as I got it from him.

Lee

I just tested 10 lots of Match. Shot a 2 or 3 shot group on a sighter & shot a row for score of each lot. Then I shot a complete target of the one's that look promising. Groups are nice, score is KING.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I just tested 10 lots of Match. Shot a 2 or 3 shot group on a sighter & shot a row for score of each lot. Then I shot a complete target of the one's that look promising. Groups are nice, score is KING.

I agree 100%

 

[Gizmo60]

It's worth noting that at ammo testing facilities ten shot groups are standard. Only when a lot performs so poorly that all ten shots are not required to eliminate it are fewer rounds tested.

Yes, you are correct but the rifle is shot from a mechanical rig/jig which removes the human error.

My point was that with human error ten rounds can make a big hole completely obliterating the ten ring, whereas five rounds make it easier to judge the accuracy, imho.

Small groups are great but end of day what wins a competition is consistency, the final score and x’s scored.

Just my tuppence worth.

 

[grauhanen]

My point was that with human error ten rounds can make a big hole completely obliterating the ten ring, whereas five rounds make it easier to judge the accuracy, imho

It doesn't make a difference if it's a big hole from ten rounds or a smaller one from five. Any time groups are used to evaluate ammo performance, they are measured regardless of whether a ten ring is completely obliterated or not. It's the measurement that matters.

For example, a good lot of ammo will produce a ten shot group at 50 meters no more than 15mm outside-to-outside, while a very good lot will do about 12mm outside-to-outside.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

It doesn't make a difference if it's a big hole from ten rounds or a smaller one from five. Any time groups are used to evaluate ammo performance, they are measured regardless of whether a ten ring is completely obliterated or not. It's the measurement that matters.

For example, a good lot of ammo will produce a ten shot group at 50 meters no more than 15mm outside-to-outside, while a very good lot will do about 12mm outside-to-outside.

Your standard for good ammo is a lot different from mines. I would not call a lot that did 15mm good.

Lee

 

[VLNBYR]

Standards of performance vary according to equipment used. Anschutz, Suhl, Win52D, Rem40X, etc. 15mm is a good result. Custom bench rifle not so good, there you are looking at 12mm to be a good lot. A really great lot doesn't necessarily shoot smaller groups but will repeat 12mm time after time. Last year I had pretty fair results with a lot that shot 13.1mm consolidated 30 shot group.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Standards of performance vary according to equipment used. Anschutz, Suhl, Win52D, Rem40X, etc. 15mm is a good result. Custom bench rifle not so good, there you are looking at 12mm to be a good lot. A really great lot doesn't necessarily shoot smaller groups but will repeat 12mm time after time. Last year I had pretty fair results with a lot that shot 13.1mm consolidated 30 shot group.

Very true it is not how small but how often. even with the mentioned rifles I still would not consider 15mm good especially if you are testing Lapua.

Lee