Lot # of Sierra bullets
- Thread starter Milo 2.0
- Start date
Ok, thanks, that's easy, lol
On the back of the original bullet box there will be a bar-code and two sets of numbers. The actual lot number is the first nine numbers of the top set. Those first nine numbers are the "LOT NUMBER", if you have more than one box of bullets and these nine numbers match they are a single lot of bullets.
There was an article in Precision Shooting many years ago explaining what Sierra "Lot" numbers really mean. The article or letter may have been by Kevin Thomas. The point was that Sierra "Lots" may not be what you are thinking they are. For example I remember that bullets from various machines are mixed, etc. Maybe someone remembers the details of this subject and can help me with the explanation.
Not what I said at all, at least where general production is concerned. During my time at Sierra, the only bullets off different machines that were ever mixed were the 168 or 175 SMKs bound for the old M852 or very early lots of M118LR Match ammunition. This was done on the orders of Lake City, who at that time didn't want to be bothered by having to keep lots separate for their production runs. As a results, I had to mix all the bullets that were going into their order, including those times when we had the same bullet running on multiple presses. This was known as a "composite" certification. I don't recall a single instance of a composite failing to meet accuracy standards or having to reject the lot, despite bullets being mixed from different presses. This practice came to an end when LCAAP decided to really refine the M118LR, and conceded to keeping lots separate throughout their production runs. A bit more work, but a better end product was the ultimate result When they put their mind to it, they can turn out some pretty fine ammo.
As far as routine production runs, no, they're never mixed. I suspect this goes back to a book written by a fairly well known benchrest shooter some years ago, wherein he described rows of bullet presses all turning out the same bullet, with all of them feeding into a central conveyor belt and into a common bin. To the best of my knowledge, he'd never set foot in a bullet maker's production facility, as I've never seen a single one where anything even remotely close to this happens. It appeared to be an assumption based upon his own ideas of how things were done, without having bothered to verify the facts. It doesn't happen that way in any of the numerous bullet manufacturing operations I've seen personally.
As far as routine production runs, no, they're never mixed. I suspect this goes back to a book written by a fairly well known benchrest shooter some years ago, wherein he described rows of bullet presses all turning out the same bullet, with all of them feeding into a central conveyor belt and into a common bin. To the best of my knowledge, he'd never set foot in a bullet maker's production facility, as I've never seen a single one where anything even remotely close to this happens. It appeared to be an assumption based upon his own ideas of how things were done, without having bothered to verify the facts. It doesn't happen that way in any of the numerous bullet manufacturing operations I've seen personally.
That variation is coming from other causes, and is not an indication that there were two different machines involved in the production of those bullets. There's a lot of other factors that can cause this, everything from a slightly bent punch (which can occur during production and may go unnoticed for a time, at least with Sierra's production method) to an operator making a slight alteration to a punch setting. It can also be as mundane as a second batch of the exact same jackets, which were oiled slightly differently before being taken to the bullet press.
dmoran
Donovan Moran
Haven't used Sierra's for a long time now, but similar to Matt (@dkhunt14), I use to see the same thing repeatedly when qualifying my bullets (BtO). Your explanation makes it sound like it would be isolated incidents, where my experience was obvious in every box/Lot from 2001 to 2007 (with 107-SMK's).
Am still interested to the why.
Donovan
Bear in mind that I haven't used Sierra bullets for the past ten years or so, but I doubt that too much has changed in re their production methods. But I'm not the one to answer that with regards to the past decade or so. I can tell you that Berger uses some production methods that specifically preclude some of this sort of variation, and that Lapua has taken some serious steps to eliminate it as well.
As Kevin stated (hello Kevin), Sierra has never and will never mix bullets from different presses UNLESS a customer specifically asks for it and signs off on it. And like him, I have been in many other bullet makers shops and they do not either. Nut and bolt makers don't usually mix lots, so you can expect precision bullet companies certainly would not. We still do things pretty much like we did when Kevin was here with the exception of some tolerance changes and isolating products to cells where it has to pass all QC processes before they are allowed to move on. But don't take my word for it - come and see. We do tours every day and you can see how they isolate bullets to not only 1 barrel per press, but each catch pan so they can QC them before spoiling even the barrel. We use 16 gallon drums to store finish bullets. A lot is never larger than what is in that drum. If they only run 5,000 in it and change operators, material, etc - the barrel is kicked out and that becomes a lot all to itself. Even a lot size of 50,000 is a pretty big lot for us and fairly rare. As Kevin said, this drives OEM customers nuts, but they know that is how we control quality, which is what brought them to us in the first place.
As Kevin said - MANY things make changes. Just turning a press off to go to break can let oil settle and change the way the material flows. It is very rare to get a lot with a single unified node (what we call those 2 batches of bullet measurements you see). These are not CNC cut bullets, but separate components assembled together at high pressure and speed. All match bullet makers struggle with quality vs quantity each day. Every time our demand has needed to increase, we have to find a way to do it and hold quality. That has always been and always will be the struggle for us bullet makers.
We have made some changes in the last 4-6 years as we changed the way our plant runs and I think you will see it in our products. If you have not looked at our 6mm 107's #1570 (dmoran mention) in the last 4-5 years - I think you would be pleasantly surprised. But again - don't take a marketing pukes word for it - check it out yourself. As always, we stand behind our products 100%. If they are not what we say they are - we replace them.
Even Kevin can attest - Match bullets are not made with a machine that a "operator" just turns on and watches it run. They are all truly tool setters and have to watch that press constantly and react to the changes as the run progresses. They are truly artist and have to constantly adapt to ever changing conditions.
Come visit us and we will show you how we do it.
As Kevin said - MANY things make changes. Just turning a press off to go to break can let oil settle and change the way the material flows. It is very rare to get a lot with a single unified node (what we call those 2 batches of bullet measurements you see). These are not CNC cut bullets, but separate components assembled together at high pressure and speed. All match bullet makers struggle with quality vs quantity each day. Every time our demand has needed to increase, we have to find a way to do it and hold quality. That has always been and always will be the struggle for us bullet makers.
We have made some changes in the last 4-6 years as we changed the way our plant runs and I think you will see it in our products. If you have not looked at our 6mm 107's #1570 (dmoran mention) in the last 4-5 years - I think you would be pleasantly surprised. But again - don't take a marketing pukes word for it - check it out yourself. As always, we stand behind our products 100%. If they are not what we say they are - we replace them.
Even Kevin can attest - Match bullets are not made with a machine that a "operator" just turns on and watches it run. They are all truly tool setters and have to watch that press constantly and react to the changes as the run progresses. They are truly artist and have to constantly adapt to ever changing conditions.
Come visit us and we will show you how we do it.
I've always wondered how they determine the count number for every box of bullets they make; purchased six one hundred count boxes of Sierra .224's last week and five out of the six boxes had an extra bullet. I'm guessing they go by weight instead of individual count.
Most manufacturers package by weight, yet another inducement to keep tolerances tight. Sierra used to deliberately package 101 to the box (even mentioned that fact in one of the earlier manuals) but reverted to a standard 100 per (most bullets, anyway) some years back. I always liked the extra bullet, as it let you do OAL set ups, have a dummy round for whatever and so on. It was a nice feature.
Sierra makes it nice to do business with them, something Hornady could learn from. Couple weeks ago I made the mistake of purchasing Hornady brass. Close to ten percent of the brass was dinged, partially crushed case mouths or just damaged. I called Hornady service. First they wanted pictures and the lot number then they wanted me to send them the entire bag; that being somewhat difficult as I had already reloaded the usable brass. Then they wanted me to mail in the damaged pieces of brass in order to replace them. I'm not going to spend $16.00 in shipping fees to get back $20.00 of brass that has a different lot number from the ones I'm using. A quality company would have apologized and replaced the entire bag. Today I was loading some of their .244 fifty five grain vmaxes. Ninety nine pieces in a box that was supposed to hold 100 bullets. I'm not going to waste my time calling customer service. I've learned my lesson with Hornady, I'll be buying Sierra going forward. As far as brass, unfortunately Lapua does not make all the cartridges I reload. I'll have to research to find what companies do, I know I'm better off with Norma or Nosler over Hornady, just a mistake I won't make again.
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