Looking for caliber/rifle advice..

[Palamedes]

Hello everyone,

I am former military and former law enforcement with a lot of shooting experience but my experience is more practical and specific to a single round (.223), and less broad in scope and not very theoretical..

With the intent of making holes in paper only, I'm wondering what the "best" caliber round would be for consistently and accurately touching a target at 300 yards while having a fairly (reasonably) low recoil..

I have several rifles, but lately I have been shooting my 8mm mauser, and while I love my mauser shooting it all day long can start to hurt in fairly short order.. (Those germans were tough..) Plus I don't know if it's a good round for what I want..

The rounds I am most familiar with are .22, .223, and 8mm rifle rounds. I'm willing to consider anything that can do what I want and I yield to the groups superior knowledge..

Thanks a bunch..

 

[jerrschmitt]

Oooo, this is a hard one. Let's see, what's the name of this site again..... Oh yea, 6BR! Sorry for the poor attempt at humor. I really don't think you can go wrong with a 6 BR for what you want. Of course, if you don't reload you'll need a second choice.

 

[Palamedes]

Actually, I see the name of this site as "Accurateshooter.com".. I'm not familiar with 6BR at all.. will do some research..

I am not against reloading, I currently do not reload.. but am looking to for my 8mm mauser rounds as I have a bucket of brass already..

 

[Laurie]

The old favourites, .223 Rem and .308 Win are always worth serious consideration in good quality heavy-barrel rifles, the former with a 1-9 or 1-8" twist rate barrel to handle the heavier match bullets. Ammo components and dies etc are everywhere, and there are many good rifles around, new and secondhand. .308 really is the use for almost anything cartridge in a suitable rifle. have a look at

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek097.html

on the main 6mmBR website, for a do-anything tactical job.

However, I'd suggest having a really close look at the small to mid calibre small cased precision cartridges, in particular 6mm BR and 6.5X47 Lapua. They're very accurate and are mild recoiling. Outstanding accuracy is obtained from good rifles with mimimum SAAMI spec chambers and no-turn chamber neck dimensions, so neck-turning is not obligatory. Barrel life is reasonable, although a fair bit less than .223 / .308. Brass is pricey but top quality from Lapua and lasts a long time. These cartridges are usually easy to get to shoot well too. Have a look at the 6BR section on the main website - there is lots of information about it and loads.

Rifle-wise, have a look at the Savage Arms website at its target rifles and varmint rifles sections. You can get a 12 F-Class or 12 Benchrest rifle in 6BR, also in the Savage 12 LRPV varmint rifle, plus .223 and 308 in the 12 F/TR models and various varmint and tactical models. These rifles probably offer the best return in accuracy for money spent so far as factory rifles go. If you're willing to pay for custom guns, any good gunsmith building accuracy rifles will know 6mmBR and 6.5X47L intimately. The Gunweek section on the main site has lots of custom rifles in these calibres on it.

Going up a bit in cartridge size, but still mild, .260 Rem is very popular with tactical / sniper competitors. See another gun of the week, Terry Cross's tactical rifle:

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html

Of course, if you really want to go to the opposite extreme from your 8mm Mauser (I agree, I've had four in a shooting lifetime, a Portuguese M1904/38 was probably the nicest and best, but that kick!) have a think about the 20s, especially .20 Practical and .20 Tactical (.223 Rem case neck down, no other changes; .223 Rem case necked down and fireformed to an improved shape respectively). They work well in AR15s and are very accurate and effective for your 300yd shooting range, especially a custom built one with a faster rifling twist than factory standard to handle 50gn bullets. There's a custom built .20 Practical AR15 in the Gun of the Weeks section, and a very good .20 cal Information section on the main 6mmBR website.

That should be enough to get you starting thinking, probably too much in fact, and I'm sure there will be many other suggestions from other Forum members.

Good browsing and shooting,

Laurie,
York, England

 

[Goofycat]

You should go to Chuck Hawks' website www.chuckhawks.com and/or Saubier to get some more input. As for me, I would choose a 6BR or maybe a 6mm PPC. Since the BR cases are available already formed, I would probably go with that one over the PPC. Check out the blurb on www.6mmBR.com for the rundown on the 6BR. There are other calibers that would fill the bill, but I still like what I have read over the years on the BR. I have never owned a 6BR, but this is the rifle I would choose.....but I reload. If you don't reload, then it's another story. In a larger caliber, I would go with a .308. Depends on how many times you want to shoot at any given time. Remember that a fast, heavy bullet bucks the wind better than a fast, small bullet. But, then again, if you plan to shoot a lot, you don't want a rifle with heavy recoil. Chuck Hawks has a table that compares recoils of many different calibers and also gives his learned opinion on many calibers.

 

[LHSmith]

No question .....6BR accuracy comes very easily with this chambering

 

[cmillard]

+1 on 6BR. extremely accurate, easy to reload, low recoil........the list goes on an on. an investment at sinclair can buy you an arbor press kit all ready to reload for the 6BR, minus some other necessary tools.

 

[Palamedes]

@Laurie -- Thanks a bunch, lots of good information there.. And yes some of it is a tad over my head but I'll figure it out.. Portuguese M1904.. good rifle, a solid metal buttplate though.. Murder I tell ya! The Savage Arms website is very well done, it looks like an entry level 6BR is about $1200.. are there other manufacturers I should look at?

@Goofycat -- Thank you I'll get an account over there and give it a read..

@Lhsmith -- What rifle would you suggest?

@Cmillard -- "investment at sinclair".. You mean these guys? http://www.sinclairintl.com/ Going to assume so since it fits.. heh Any good suggestions for a beginner at reloading? A book maybe?


@All

Good stuff guys, thanks a bunch.. I had never heard of the 6BR prior to today, and my friend (who frankly does a lot more shooting than I do) is a tad skeptical, but I'm interested.. The fact that it's different actually appeals to me quite a bit.. His skepticism comes from the fact that its a "niche" caliber that requires special .. well, everything.. Not that it can't perform the way you suggest.. In fact he readily admits that a lot of the more obscure rounds are excellent.. But you have to pay for that..

Which brings me to my next question;

Typically what would a rifle chambered for this round usually set someone back? The Savage Arms rifles are $1200ish just to get into the market.. is that about right?

Are there other off-the-shelf rifles or for "special" calibers like this or do you / can you buy a ready made rifle in a different caliber and have it re-chambered to fire the 6BR? (That may be a dumb question.. sorry..)

Thanks a ton

 

[rocketron]

palamedes......not sure what you mean by..... caliber that requires special everything.....no matter what caliber you choose you need dies,brass, etc. for it. the only thing special my 6br requires is smaller targets.

 

[Johnboy]

223 or 308 will do what you want to do.and they both can get out to 1000.

223= cost is a lot less than 308.and watching it get out to 500-1000 can be really fun.

308=cost is still in the budget.and it will get out to 500 with good results and even take game.and still get out to 1000 with good results.

and loading for either can be done with little to as much as you want to do when it comes to loading them.just depends on how bad you really want to see it shoot one ragged hole all the time.or to how much time you want to spend in the reloading process.

last but not the least.remington and savage make good rifels in both cals.and either are a good budget rifel for those who cannot see themselves getting a custom built for the first time out in the shooting world of shooting one ragged holes.but hey this is just my opinion.

 

[Palamedes]

@ Rocketron -- hehe the requirement for smaller targets is a good one!! In all seriousness though I didn't mean that as a jab at 6mmbr, nor did my buddy.. I think what he meant, and what I mean is that it seems that 6mmbr isn't as readily available off the shelf as .223 or .308.. Heck you can go to walmart and throw a rock in a random direction and likely hit a box of either of those.. That's not necessarily a good thing..

@ Johnboy -- Initially I was leaning towards one of the .308 savage guns.. A coworker of mine shoots one and swears by it.. He also lives by the notion that "when the shooting starts, shoot something that is readily available".. While thats all well and good (and a tad pessimistic), I am still kinda liking the idea of the 6mmbr..

Cost is the real trick. I'm not wanting to spend more than $2k to get completely setup - gun, reloading equipment..etc..

 

[rfair]

Palamedes,
Your friend has a good idea! The savage would make you a great rifle in a 308 or a 223. They have great reviews for their out of the box accuracy, you also wouldn't have to reload for real good ammo although it would save you some coin. But reloading does bring out the best of any rifle { ask any seasoned reloader}.
If you do decide to reload Savage sells a couple models in the 6br and that takes a little bit more cost to reload for than a 223 but less than a 308 as far as components go.
All three would do what you want to do!!!

 

[NateHaler]

Hello everyone,

I am former military and former law enforcement with a lot of shooting experience but my experience is more practical and specific to a single round (.223), and less broad in scope and not very theoretical..

With the intent of making holes in paper only, I'm wondering what the "best" caliber round would be for consistently and accurately touching a target at 300 yards while having a fairly (reasonably) low recoil..

There is no "best". If you read the thousands of posts about this, and similar, subject matter on the multitude of shooting forums, you'll get lots of opinions. The answer is always "it depends".

There is no shortage of information out there, as close as the 'search' function, or a search engine.

I'd vote for the .223, provided you have optics/eyesight/target type/footpower or mechanical power to get to the 300y line to see the results. .22 caliber holes are tough to see at 300y, so you need to plan accordingly.

IMO, there's no better choice for punching paper based on your stated criteria. Is that the "best"?

Last but not least, thanks for your military service!!

 

[rocketron]

palamedes....i didn't take it as a jab at the 6mm br. you are correct your not walking out of wally world or most sporting good stores with a box of 6br rounds. i reload so i didn't even think of that.

 

[1000yardstare]

Palamedes, buy a Savage 12 VLP in .243 Win and never look back - heavy 26 " stainless fluted barrel, laminated stock, Accutrigger, mild recoil, accurate out to 1000 yards with 105/107 match bullets. You can shoot factory ammo until you get into the reloading game. Lots of good bullets in 6mm. I shot a Savage 12 in .243 two years ago in F Class and did very well with it.

The .308 has more recoil than the .243, about the same as your 8mm. But the .30 caliber target bullets have probably had more R&D put into them than any other caliber because of their use in International competition. To keep down cost you would have to reload.

I shoot .223 in F Class out to 1000 yards and I call it the curse of the M16 which has spread like a plague over the English speaking world. Cheap to reload but so what. It is marginal on groundhogs and is the bane of target pullers in fullbore matches looking for that dinky hole in the target paper. Past 200 yards you need fast twist barrels and heavy bullets to fight the wind which pretty well requires reloading.

 

[LHSmith]

Savage seems to get good reviews as of late. Also, keep an eye on the classifieds for a used 6BR. Lots of advise offered, but your criteria of low recoil, uncannily ACCURATE to 300 yds ....6BR rules. Long barrel life, load data at your fingertips right here on this site, easy to obtain dies, superb bullet selection in 6mm.

 

[Palamedes]

Thanks everyone for your responses, this is great..

@Rfair -- Yeah several people I know mentioned that I should get a savage without my even prompting so that kinda implies they are the company to go with ..

@NateHaler -- I fully realize there really isn't a best.. that's why I put it in quotes like I did.. Its all relative.. I mean look at this thread.. so far it has been suggested I go with 6BR, .223, .243, .260, and .308.. heh Let this thread go on long enough someones gonna suggest every round out there =) I just like getting the opinions of folks who are more experienced..

@1000yardstare -- I do like the look of the Savage 12 VLP DBM and it comes in all manner of calibers.. I'll do a bunch of research on .243 though and get back to it.. It appears to be just a necked down .308 round.. Does that put a lot of extra pressure on the rifle when doing that? What's the barrel life expectancy for something of that nature?

@LHSmith -- the 6BR is intriguing for sure.. Lots of folks have suggested it, but that might be due to this being a 6mmbr forum (see original responder..)

I will admit that part of the reason 6BR, or the .243, or .308 etc.(anything not .223) appeals to be is because.. well its NOT .223.. Having said that, most people I know would find that a perfectly retarded line of thinking.. I know for a fact some would say that there is a reason .223 is a popular round.. And if through reloading I can tool the rounds up to do anything then maybe I should revisit my line of thinking..

 

[jo191145]

@LHSmith -- the 6BR is intriguing for sure.. Lots of folks have suggested it, but that might be due to this being a 6mmbr forum (see original responder..)

The reason the 6BR is suggested and the reason this site exists is simple. Accuracy, inherint accuracy.
The 6ppc rules at 100 200 and maybe even 300 yds. The 6BR is never far behind the ppc at any yardage and depending on the twist of the tube it outshines the ppc past 200yds. Debatable I'm sure.

A seasoned shooter can make almost any cartridge that has appropriate bullets for it shoot well. The 6BR is almost the opposite. Pretty hard to make them shoot bad.

 

[Palamedes]

Yeah but at this point I still know zilch about the 6BR other than what you guys have told me and what I have read..

Can you give me talking points as to why 6BR is better than .223 backed up by fact? I'm having a hard time convincing my friend that its a good thing..

 

[jo191145]

Talking points? Dang I'm not that good at talking points. There are plenty folks on this site that can provide statistical and internal ballistic knowledge but being smart they're in bed at this hour ;D

223/6BR/6ppc "I'' think it really boils down to length of the powder columne. 223 like most cartridges are long and skinny (relativaly speaking) The most accurate cartridges in short range shooting are short and squat, short powder columne. Therein lies the magic. Its been plenty of years since I read the attributes of a short powder columne compared to long but it did make sense at the time. The 222 (long columne)was a favorite BR cartridge until the 6ppc (short) was invented and totally took over the accuracy arena. Its a big math equation between volumne/length/bore and a few other things I'm probably forgetting at this hour morning.

What it really boils down to on the target is "agging ability". Rifles/cartridges are defined in competition by agging ability. Its nice for your 223 to shoot a .25moa 5 shot group at 100yds.
Can it do it consistently??? Aggregates are the accumulation of many groups(usually five) that give a truer reading of a guns/cartridges ability. In competition one group does'nt mean as much as the average of five together.
The 6ppc (or variants there of) rules aggregates in short range competition. The 6 BR is real close to that and because of its slightly higher case volumne is capable of shooting heavier bullets with better ballistic coeeficients at greater distances.

It is possible for shooter A to make a 223 shoot better than shooter B's 6BR. Shooter A is gonna have to work overtime to do it and shooter B is gonna have to be asleep at the switch but it is possible. Until a shooter does load development on both theres not much else to say to sway a made up mind.
My 6 BR 14 twist will shoot any appropriate bullet into roughly .5moa with any powder charge. .2 moa when I get it right. Give me a 223 and I'll show you plenty of 1 moa groups