• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Longer COAL AR15 mags?

As I'm about to start loading for my first AR I noticed the COAL on the mags for most is only a pretty short 2.260" This is going to severely limit what high BC bullets you can load and take advantage of an 8 twist AR if you want to shoot past 600 yards, which I definitely intend to be doing. I bought some 73g ELDMs and 75g BTHP Match for it to start, but if I'm to seat them at typical mag length of 2.260" it's going to take up quite a bit of case/powder capacity. So my question is there any mags that allow a longer COAL for the 75-80g bullets, and particularly the 73 or 75g ELDMs to achieve the nominal 2.390" length?
 
Last edited:
ASC magazines will allow up to 2.314/.316 nominal. You must get the STAIN:ESS versions for the extra inside space. Merely a factor of material change. I run about 3 dozen of them as I shoot a lot of wildcats and want the flexibility. Alternatively you can cut the front out of a standard mag and let the points stick out. This is common in the long range High Power matches. Just Google windowed magazines and make your own. Most lowers let you hit 2.400 with these. I have one that is custom done that was broached a tad more and lets me go a bit longer. You can cut them down to hold 5-8 depending on the chambering.
 
ASC magazines will allow up to 2.314/.316 nominal. You must get the STAIN:ESS versions for the extra inside space. Merely a factor of material change. I run about 3 dozen of them as I shoot a lot of wildcats and want the flexibility. Alternatively you can cut the front out of a standard mag and let the points stick out. This is common in the long range High Power matches. Just Google windowed magazines and make your own. Most lowers let you hit 2.400 with these. I have one that is custom done that was broached a tad more and lets me go a bit longer. You can cut them down to hold 5-8 depending on the chambering.
Are these the ones you are referring too? They don't mention anything about the longer COAL, but I'll order a couple if I can get 2.315" out of them. Every little bit will help with the 73 and 75g ELDM.

I did a quick Google search on the cut out mags, but I honestly don't have the tools or know how for that. That does seem like it might work though. Maybe I'll order a couple more later down the road and take them to my gunsmith and see if he can modify them to get 2.4"

Thank you!
 
As I'm about to start loading for my first AR I noticed the COAL on the mags for most is only a pretty short 2.260" This is going to severely limit what high BC bullets you can load and take advantage of an 8 twist AR if you want to shoot past 600 yards, which I definitely intend to be doing. I bought some 73g ELDMs and 75g BTHP Match for it to start, but if I'm to seat them at typical mag length of 2.260" it's going to take up quite a bit of case/powder capacity. So my question is there any mags that allow a longer COAL for the 75-80g bullets, and particularly the 73 or 75g ELDMs to achieve the nominal 2.390" length?
Please do not take what I am about to say as meaning that you should never "color outside the lines" or try to innovate or tinker. By all means, if this is where your heart pulls you than don't let anyone talk you out of it.

I am not sure what you already know or what you have heard about using an AR15 at magazine limits or beyond the norms as you are describing.

All I am suggesting here, is to postpone going to the extremes until you have a chance to learn some of the more basic levels of using long heavy bullets in AR15/223 and then see if you still think it is really worth the effort.

If this is really early in your AR experience, you will likely find that pushing an AR15 to do things at or beyond the standardized design limits is something that you may want to postpone till after you have the hang of your basics because of the design limits of the brass, bolt, and gas system of the AR15.

An AR15 is designed around 1700 Joules or about 1300 ft*lbs of muzzle energy, running ammo pressure of about 420.0 MPa (60,916 psi). We all have our own opinions of what happened when folks come along and try to push this higher. We have seen enhanced metallurgy of the bolts, as well as hybrid brass-steel cases. (Ever notice any of these winning Midrange matches?)

In terms of your own capabilities and in terms of the typical energy of an AR15 in 223, trying to make one run hot with heavy bullets from the magazine isn't easy on the brass, and more often than not doesn't give optimum accuracy at distance.

The platform has been around long enough and used in competition that there isn't much new under the sun that hasn't been researched or attempted. The low hanging fruit has all been picked, and even the stuff that is higher up in the branches has been picked. Ever wonder why some things don't gain wide spread adoption, even by the extreme competitors and tinkerers?

The use of something like a 77 TMK from magazine length offers pretty decent 600 yard performance. It doesn't equal what a High Master can do with a single loaded 80 class Berger or Sierra, but it comes pretty close.

Even at that rate, the brass life is very short. Many of the XTC folks scrap brass after 4 cycles to avoid the work of close inspection to prevent case head separation during matches.

Why not start with single feed on a Berger 80.5 or SMK 80 and see if you can clean the SR target. If you are above average, maybe you can run 200-10X? Then, see what you can to with 77 grain loads from the magazine. The bracket between single feed versus magazine will be enough to show you if doing all of that research will bear fruit that is worth your effort.

If you are new to the AR, I would rather help you learn to clean a 600 yard slow fire Service Rifle stage or win a Midrange Match with a single feed 80 grain load. If you get that much accomplished and are still happy and energetic, going above and beyond will be a different outing that is based on a strong foundation. My guess is you would then find yourself perfecting an AR10 load and being more successful, but I could be wrong.


Good luck and have fun on your AR journey.
 
Are these the ones you are referring too? They don't mention anything about the longer COAL, but I'll order a couple if I can get 2.315" out of them. Every little bit will help with the 73 and 75g ELDM.

I did a quick Google search on the cut out mags, but I honestly don't have the tools or know how for that. That does seem like it might work though. Maybe I'll order a couple more later down the road and take them to my gunsmith and see if he can modify them to get 2.4"

Thank you!
They use to list the length on their page but dropped it when it was redone. They are cheap enough to experiment with.. A Dremel tool can open up the mags with a cutting wheel and a file to clean them up.
 
Please do not take what I am about to say as meaning that you should never "color outside the lines" or try to innovate or tinker. By all means, if this is where your heart pulls you than don't let anyone talk you out of it.

I am not sure what you already know or what you have heard about using an AR15 at magazine limits or beyond the norms as you are describing.

All I am suggesting here, is to postpone going to the extremes until you have a chance to learn some of the more basic levels of using long heavy bullets in AR15/223 and then see if you still think it is really worth the effort.

If this is really early in your AR experience, you will likely find that pushing an AR15 to do things at or beyond the standardized design limits is something that you may want to postpone till after you have the hang of your basics because of the design limits of the brass, bolt, and gas system of the AR15.

An AR15 is designed around 1700 Joules or about 1300 ft*lbs of muzzle energy, running ammo pressure of about 420.0 MPa (60,916 psi). We all have our own opinions of what happened when folks come along and try to push this higher. We have seen enhanced metallurgy of the bolts, as well as hybrid brass-steel cases. (Ever notice any of these winning Midrange matches?)

In terms of your own capabilities and in terms of the typical energy of an AR15 in 223, trying to make one run hot with heavy bullets from the magazine isn't easy on the brass, and more often than not doesn't give optimum accuracy at distance.

The platform has been around long enough and used in competition that there isn't much new under the sun that hasn't been researched or attempted. The low hanging fruit has all been picked, and even the stuff that is higher up in the branches has been picked. Ever wonder why some things don't gain wide spread adoption, even by the extreme competitors and tinkerers?

The use of something like a 77 TMK from magazine length offers pretty decent 600 yard performance. It doesn't equal what a High Master can do with a single loaded 80 class Berger or Sierra, but it comes pretty close.

Even at that rate, the brass life is very short. Many of the XTC folks scrap brass after 4 cycles to avoid the work of close inspection to prevent case head separation during matches.

Why not start with single feed on a Berger 80.5 or SMK 80 and see if you can clean the SR target. If you are above average, maybe you can run 200-10X? Then, see what you can to with 77 grain loads from the magazine. The bracket between single feed versus magazine will be enough to show you if doing all of that research will bear fruit that is worth your effort.

If you are new to the AR, I would rather help you learn to clean a 600 yard slow fire Service Rifle stage or win a Midrange Match with a single feed 80 grain load. If you get that much accomplished and are still happy and energetic, going above and beyond will be a different outing that is based on a strong foundation. My guess is you would then find yourself perfecting an AR10 load and being more successful, but I could be wrong.


Good luck and have fun on your AR journey.
I am very new to the ARs. This is my first one, and first to load heavier bullets with.

With that said, I am not new to reloading or shooting long range. Been shooting 1K for almost 25 years now, but with bolt actions.

I'm just trying to get the most performance from the AR platform to go a little further than 600 yards, and not have to single feed was all.

I'll play around mag depths for a bit with the 73g ELDM and 75g BTHP out to 600, as they were both designed to shoot from mag length from my understanding.

I did just build a bolt 223 Wylde with an 8 twist Bartlein to shoot the 75g ELDM from Lapua brass as a 1K trainer to my 6 creed and 7-300 win mag.

I should probably just leave the AR alone out to 600 with mag fed length 73 and 75s, and use the 223 bolt past 600. But I'm just always trying to push the limits on cartridges/bullets. Not to say I'm going to be hotrodding them out of the AR, more so as just to get closer to the lands and have better accuracy, while gaining maybe 50-75fps was all.

So the 77 TMK is probably the best bullet to use for mag length out to 600 then? Better than the 73g ELDM even?

I appreciate all your advice and will definitely give it some thought as I go down the AR hole.
 
I just bought two stainless ASC 20 round mags and am loading Sierra 77 SMKs at 2.29” +/- without issue. Didn’t try any longer as I didn’t want to risk them binding up.
 
I just bought two stainless ASC 20 round mags and am loading Sierra 77 SMKs at 2.29” +/- without issue. Didn’t try any longer as I didn’t want to risk them binding up.
I just ordered a couple ASC 5 round steel mags in hopes I can get 2.315" or at least 2.3" without feeding issues. Should be plenty for the 73g ELDM and 75g BTHP Match to reach 800 yards.
 
So the 77 TMK is probably the best bullet to use for mag length out to 600 then? Better than the 73g ELDM even?
Just a suggestion, not a guarantee that any given bullet is "best" for you. You should try them all before you bulk up on anything.

However, the 77 weight bullets are popular in the XTC competition crowds where magazine length is required, and for a good reason. Along comes the TMK version, and they managed to raise the BC. Nothing wrong with the other choices either, but some are just too long for the magazine and we single load those for the 600 yard stage.

To get one of the ones that is too long to run from the magazine, may or may not be worth your efforts. The only thing I am trying to do, is put some perspective in front of you.

Here is the view from 100,000 feet that will put a perspective on what I mean.

Some folks will do better than these speeds, some will do worse. Here they are just to give an energy based perspective. I am not trying to start a pissing contest on who can push faster or slower, but trying to show the perspective of these different bullets and their value.

In terms of external ballistics, we will assume we have roughly 1700 Joules or 1300 ft*lbs worth of energy to keep things similar. That pushes a 77 at roughly 2750 fps, and an 80 at 2700 and the 73 ELDM at 2831.


Berger says that the Berger 80.5 Fullbore has a G1 BC of 0.441

Sierra says that the Sierra 80 SMK has a BC of 0.461 @ 2100 fps and above .453 between 1750 and 2100 fps .420 @ 1750 fps and below.

Sierra says that the Sierra 77 SMK which is popular from the magazine, is .372 @ 3000 fps and above .362 between 2500 and 3000 fps .362 between 1700 and 2500 fps .343 @ 1700 fps and below

However, later on they came out with the 77 TMK version, which splits the difference with .420 @ 2400 fps and above .415 between 2400 and 2000 fps .395 between 2000 and 1750 fps .380 @ 1750 fps and below.

If there were a 200 yard zero on these rounds, their 1000 yard drops, and 10 MPH full value wind would be as follows.
I'll pick an altitude of 2650 feet MSL and 50 F.
77 SMK, 39.7" (goes subsonic before the 900 yard line) windage 130.9"
77 TMK, 36.7" (goes subsonic just past the 1000 yard line) windage 116.1"
80 SMK, 36.3" (goes subsonic just past the 1000 yard line) windage 110.2"
80.5 Berg, 34.1" (goes subsonic just past the 1100 yard line) windage 98.8"

The 73 ELDM 35.5" (goes subsonic at 975 yards) windage 118.7"

(Staying sonic is important where matches use eTargets since they won't mark a subsonic bullet.)

So the TMK is pretty good for a magazine length bullet, and helps split the difference to the bullets like the Berger 80.5 and the SMK 80, which are both traditionally loaded long for the 600 yard XTC stages or Midrange matches where Service Rifle competitors run their AR for practice.

Nothing wrong with trying the 73 ELDM either. For games where score is kept on standard targets as in highpower-sling, you will want to pay attention to the accuracy and precision of these loads. It is one thing to shoot rapids at 300 yards, and other to shoot slow fire at 600 or 1000.

There is some force and violence in the AR when the round goes from the mag to the chamber. The longer the round gets, the more leverage there is between the nose and the shoulder. The magazine fed rounds must be sturdy.

In any case, good luck with your AR journey and have fun.
 
Just a suggestion, not a guarantee that any given bullet is "best" for you. You should try them all before you bulk up on anything.

However, the 77 weight bullets are popular in the XTC competition crowds where magazine length is required, and for a good reason. Along comes the TMK version, and they managed to raise the BC. Nothing wrong with the other choices either, but some are just too long for the magazine and we single load those for the 600 yard stage.

To get one of the ones that is too long to run from the magazine, may or may not be worth your efforts. The only thing I am trying to do, is put some perspective in front of you.

Here is the view from 100,000 feet that will put a perspective on what I mean.

Some folks will do better than these speeds, some will do worse. Here they are just to give an energy based perspective. I am not trying to start a pissing contest on who can push faster or slower, but trying to show the perspective of these different bullets and their value.

In terms of external ballistics, we will assume we have roughly 1700 Joules or 1300 ft*lbs worth of energy to keep things similar. That pushes a 77 at roughly 2750 fps, and an 80 at 2700 and the 73 ELDM at 2831.


Berger says that the Berger 80.5 Fullbore has a G1 BC of 0.441

Sierra says that the Sierra 80 SMK has a BC of 0.461 @ 2100 fps and above .453 between 1750 and 2100 fps .420 @ 1750 fps and below.

Sierra says that the Sierra 77 SMK which is popular from the magazine, is .372 @ 3000 fps and above .362 between 2500 and 3000 fps .362 between 1700 and 2500 fps .343 @ 1700 fps and below

However, later on they came out with the 77 TMK version, which splits the difference with .420 @ 2400 fps and above .415 between 2400 and 2000 fps .395 between 2000 and 1750 fps .380 @ 1750 fps and below.

If there were a 200 yard zero on these rounds, their 1000 yard drops, and 10 MPH full value wind would be as follows.
I'll pick an altitude of 2650 feet MSL and 50 F.
77 SMK, 39.7" (goes subsonic before the 900 yard line) windage 130.9"
77 TMK, 36.7" (goes subsonic just past the 1000 yard line) windage 116.1"
80 SMK, 36.3" (goes subsonic just past the 1000 yard line) windage 110.2"
80.5 Berg, 34.1" (goes subsonic just past the 1100 yard line) windage 98.8"

The 73 ELDM 35.5" (goes subsonic at 975 yards) windage 118.7"

(Staying sonic is important where matches use eTargets since they won't mark a subsonic bullet.)

So the TMK is pretty good for a magazine length bullet, and helps split the difference to the bullets like the Berger 80.5 and the SMK 80, which are both traditionally loaded long for the 600 yard XTC stages or Midrange matches where Service Rifle competitors run their AR for practice.

Nothing wrong with trying the 73 ELDM either. For games where score is kept on standard targets as in highpower-sling, you will want to pay attention to the accuracy and precision of these loads. It is one thing to shoot rapids at 300 yards, and other to shoot slow fire at 600 or 1000.

There is some force and violence in the AR when the round goes from the mag to the chamber. The longer the round gets, the more leverage there is between the nose and the shoulder. The magazine fed rounds must be sturdy.

In any case, good luck with your AR journey and have fun.
That was a ton of great info. Thank you for taking the time to write that all up and explain. The 73 ELDM and 77 TMK are really pretty dang close to each other it looks like. I'm hoping the 73 will shoot decent as they are cheap and available. In any case, it looks like it will be plenty good out to 800 yards, and might make it to 1K on steel also. I won't be doing any matches with this rifle. And I probably will never shoot the 80s or single feed either. Just a steel plinker at the range, and also a calling/truck rifle for coyotes. Again, thank you for all the information and advice!
 
The 73 ELDM and 77 TMK are really pretty dang close to each other it looks like. I'm hoping the 73 will shoot decent as they are cheap and available.
If you are a dedicated 223 shooter, there is nothing wrong with grabbing what is available when the topic is known good bullets like the 73 ELDM and 77. Stuff that is highly recommended or really good on paper, but that you can't get.... is cold comfort.
 
I have not had a chance to shoot the 73 ELDm bullets yet, but have shot a lot of the 80 ELDm and a few of the 88s out of Wylde chambered ARs. They really like to jump. We are shooting them at .040 off the rifling (which seems to be the sweet spot) with N140 at modest velocities and they have shot really well. You might find the 73s like to jump as well.

That being said, the ACS stainless steel magazines do allow a longer OAL, but it's not much. I've also shot 20rnd Colt mags with the front cut out and they worked fine, but it was only for 8 rounds needed for shooting service rifle.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,429
Messages
2,195,908
Members
78,902
Latest member
Kapkadian
Back
Top