Long range shooting with 45 70.

[two dogs]

Have been looking at 45/70 period options for longer range shooting and there are three issues I'm paying attention to: cost, action strength and accuracy out of the box. The cost spectrum ranges from H&R's Buffalo Classic as the most affordable, and the US Made replicas of Winchester (high wall 1885), Remington (rolling block), and Browning (high wall 1885, probably made in Japan.) at the top of the range. In the middle is Pedersoli Sharps imported by Navy Arms and Cabelas which appears to be well fitted for the price. Pedersoli also made a Quigley model (now called Limited Edition) which seems to rival the others at the top of the price range.

Factory 45/70 ammunition is very mild because of the possibility or being shot in an antique firearm which was designed for black powder cartridges. On the other end of the spectrum, I've looked at reloading manuals which recommend reloads generating higher pressures are restricted to very strong actions like the Ruger #1 and the Marlin lever action. Does anyone know if there is a period piece which rivals the Marlin and Ruger for action strength? How do the H&R, Browning, Pedersoli, Remington and Winchester compare as far as action strength and probable accuracy out of the box? Is there a difference between Pedersoli Sharps and Pedersoli Quigly when it comes to action strength and probable accuracy out of the box or is the difference in price only a function of cosmetics? Is there somethin I'm missing?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[expiper]

Hi 2 dogs,,,I have a friend who built a custom .458 bolt gun ,,,Krieger bbl,,,,and he shoots reduced loads th;at duplicate 45-70 vel....lead bullets etc....it is suprizingly accurate and he has a ball withit...even deer hunts and can hunt "dangerous"game with full power lo'ads....can use an;y scope in modern mounts/rings,,,,and usually cheeper than premium hi-wall //farqueson style actions....plus the bbl can be changed to any typical mag (6.5-7mm-300 mag--etc.) which gives the rifle lots of flexibility...any good bolt action can be used ,,his was Rem. 700,,,Roger

 

[Hombre0321]

Lots of options for this old round the 45/70. It would depend completely on what your intended use for the rifle will be. In the reproductions there are some very good rifles and quite a bit of junk.

Since you mentioned that word "Period" I am not sure what you have in mind, but I think I have a hint if you meant that word. In the original rifles there are a lot of them that would be period correct. A sample list would read like this.

Winchester Highwall extremely strong action even by todays standards.

The Stevens 44 1/2, these come along early in the 1900 hundreds, good solid action, very accurate when loaded correctly. They are also a switch barrel rifle, barrel changes can be made in about 2 minutes on a Stevens, and is done with nothing but a screw driver.

The Remington Hepburn while this is something of a modified rolling block it is the best there is in that type action.

Rolling Block iffy strength as they can and do blow open.

Ballard 1875, great accuracy out to a 1,000 yds is possible, strength has been questioned many times as the Ballard has a split breachblock.

Sharps 1974 these are the Sharps you always here about. Can be very accurate in the right shooters hands, one negative often mentioned is the very large side mounted Hammer and the crazy z bar arraignment needed to get from the side hammer to the center mounted firing pin. There is quite a bit if torque with a hammer that big and there lock time can be slower due to the z bar. Now with that said the Sharps has one just about every match held for these rifles at one time or another.

These are just a few of the Falling Block and rolling block actions outthere. Everything listed if reproduced by American manufacturer's as well as some in Europe as well.

Probably the strongest is the 1885 HighWall produced by Steve Meacham. These
are great actions. The Browning 1885 is in fact produced in Japan by Moruko ( I am pretty sure I misspelled that one) but the barrels are American made by Badger Barrels. DO NOT sell these Browning short they can be a very competitive rifle. Browning redesigned the trigger on there version of the highwall and did a real bad job. However there is a quick and easy fix that will give you a match ready trigger. There also is the highwall Made by Ballard Rifles in Cody WY, great action real good folks to do business with and these do have the original designed John Browning trigger designed for the first highwall's in 1885. C.Sharps of big Timber Montana also produces a very fine Highwall, and they are available with the best single set trigger I have ever seen.

Any of these Highwalls are completely strong enough for any cartridge you would ever want to shoot up to and including the 50/110. To achieve the very best accuracy for these rifles however you will need to shoot Black Powder and custom hand cast bullets cast in an alloy like 30 to 1 or 40 to 1. bullet weights in and around the 530 to 570 grain mark do best in the 45/70. You will never achieve the potential of these rifles with smokeless powder. It has been tried and tried many, many times and just does not measure up to what they are capable of.

Roland

 

[two dogs]

Great information on relative strength of 45/70 actions. Thank you. i found your comment on black powder most interesting. My guess is that the large capacity of a 45/ case is most effective with a slow burning powder and black powder burns very slow.

 

[Hombre0321]

I think you are right about the Black Powder and its burn rate up to a point. Black Powder burns at a consistant rate either loose or confined in a case and that certainly has something to do with it. Also the 45/70 and it varients like the 45/90 and bigger do best at subsonic speeds. It is no problem at all for the bullet to remain sub-sonic all the way to the 1,000 yd line.

A big reason for this is the bullet itself. These big heavy soft lead bullets need to leave the muzzle at a slower speed or you start to get nose slump. This deforming of the bullet is a accuracy killer. Jacketed bullets just do not work very well in these big straight wall cases.

These old cartridges can be extremely accurate for what they are. However the are accurate at a known distance. In BPCR 1,000 yard and Creedmoor matches if the target was moved by as little as 5 feet either front or back,and the shooter was shooting X's at the orginal distance he would not even hit a single target. They have a trajectory like a rainbow, a very predictable trajectory but it is at a known distance, nothing flat about these old guys.

Also as to the actual shooting of Black Powder in these old BreachLoading rifles. Cleaning, shooting and caring for these shooting Black is about 10 times easier than smokeless. Not what you have always heard I bet. The secret is the BreachLoading part. Two patches with nothing but water followed by two dry patches and the barrel is squeaky clean. Then treat the bore with what ever you use and you are done. Nothing like a muzzleloader were it can take a hour to get those clean.

Today we also for the first time in decades we have a powder just as good as in the the 1860,s. That also is a big help...

Roland

 

[wboggs]

Many of the best BPCR shooters use the Sharps, a few use Browning (poor trigger, no easy fix), and Stevens. Using Black Powder and cast bullets, they are amazing accurate. Matches are held out to 1000 yds. Great bunch of guys who are anxious to help new shooters.
Google BRCR and The Black Powder Cartridge News Magazine to get info. In addition to targets, they shoot metalic silhouette out to 500 Meters.

 

[Hombre0321]

Many of the best BPCR shooters use the Sharps, a few use Browning (poor trigger, no easy fix), and Stevens. Using Black Powder and cast bullets, they are amazing accurate. Matches are held out to 1000 yds. Great bunch of guys who are anxious to help new shooters.
Google BRCR and The Black Powder Cartridge News Magazine to get info. In addition to targets, they shoot metalic silhouette out to 500 Meters.

Mr. Boggs, You are correct about the Sharps, a lot of shooters use them, they do have there drawbacks though. As to the Browning BPCR rifle they do have a poor trigger, however there is a very easy fix for them. Lee Shaver a gunsmith in Missouri perfected the trigger fix on the Browning. He sells the parts to fix it yourself for about $10.00 or $20.00 and if you ship him the rifle he will do the fix for $35.00. His trigger gives the Brownings a nice crisp trigger that breaks at right at a pound and is as sharp as snapping a glass rod.

Roland

 

[wboggs]

I shipped Mr. Shaver a sear assembly from a Browning and he modified it. Worked well for a couple of years, then the rifle began to fire when I closed the action. Couldn't believe it when it first happened. Thought I had touched the trigger. I left the line and found it could be reproduced, not very often, but it was there.
The Browning trigger design is very poor, no one makes a good replacement, and modifications
leave much to be desired. The rest of the rifle is superb but the trigger is a piece of junk.

 

[two dogs]

Roland,

You are an amazing source of valuable information for me as I contemplate long range 45/70 shooting. I've been doing a little research myself and I have found that there are actually three classes of loads for the 45/70, depending on the strength of the action. First are the antiques, rolling blocks, etc. Even if they are mechanically intact, the effects of aging can certainly effect strength of an action. I'm sure many poorly made replicas fall into this category. Even the well made Pedersoli Quigley suggests only factory ammo, until you press the issue of "how much pressure", but I'll discuss that after I define the classes of action strength. Until recently all factory ammo fell into this first category and let's say the limit here is 25,000 cup which is similar to original black powder loads for which these black powder rifles were designed.

The second category would be for the strong Marlin 1895 lever action. I believe both Browning and Winchester have manufactured versions of "the gun that won the west" in 45/70 also. This category of action strength deals with pressures up to 40,000 cup. A company called Cor-Bon has broken away from the tradition of keeping factory ammo safe for all 45/70s and is producing factory ammo in this middle area dominated by the strong lever action rifles. For the time being the I will place the Browning and Winchester single shots in this category also. When I find evidence they will withstand the 50,000 cup of the third category, I'll move them up.

The Ruger #1 and the Dakota 10 have actions that can and do withstand 50,000 cup and they dominate the third category. It's really not such a black and white situation though. I suspect that the Browning and Winchester 45/70 single shots fit between the second and third category (or may even fit into the 3rd category.) As for the Italian gun maker who specializes in period replicas, when pressed, they get defensive and talk about the fact that every single gun gets tested by a proofing agency at 30% above factory ammo. If we considered factory ammo at 25000 cup from the first category, then Pedersoli's are tested to 32500 cup and bear a proof mark as evidence. They hedge however, for the sake of safety, and limit pressure to 29007 cup. So the Quigley is in the middle between the first and second categories. I have heard from Roland, my mentor, that black powder is the best load anyway and I doubt you can get enough black powder in the 45/70 case to exceed 26,000 cup using normal size bullets for this cartridge. Larger than reasonable bullets could certainly push pressures into dangerous territory for the Quigley. Pedersoli does not allow anything but black powder cartridges in their 45/90 and 45/120 versions, only the 45/70 is allowed to experiment with modern powders.

The Pedersoli Quigley will be my first venture into this arena because its adequate for the job, looks the part and weighs in at over 13 pounds. If its not accurate, I'll move on. For the time being I'm going to shoot these big rounds out of a heavy rifle. The Quigley weighs close twice as much as the seven pound lever actions. If black powder is the way to go as Roland claims, then there is no need for a stronger action and the Quigley looks like my perception of a long range black powder rifle. I guess I've seen too many Western Movies.

Mike

 

[two dogs]

Wboggs,

I apologize for not addressing my post to you, but we were typing simultaneously.

Mike

 

[Hombre0321]

Mr Boggs, That certainly has not been the case with the three Brownings I own. I shot my first BPCRS match in March of 1999. That match was shot with a Browning BPCR in 45/70 and with a the trigger modification designed by Lee Shaver. Since that day that rifle has well over 50,000 bullets down the bore it has never once slammed fired and the trigger only got better with time. I also know of at least 30 other BPCR rifles in both 45/70 and 40/65 with this modification and to the best of my knowledge none of those has ever had this problem.

I also have a Browning BPCR Creedmoor in 45/90 it also has the same trigger and with the same results. The Browning trigger is a very poor design you are correct about that, but like most things it can be fixed. I am sure that if you returned this rifle to Lee Shaver he will correct this free of charge no matter how long it has been. Lee Shaver is also the warranty guy here in the US for the Pedersoli rifles.

I no longer shoot the Brownings very often, I moved on to Meacham Highwall and have never looked back.

two dogs,
Don't misunderstand me here. You can shoot smokeless powder in these rifles, my remarks were to the accuracy of smokeless vs black Powder in "THIS" type of rifle. There is no real comparison between the two.

Also if you are intending to shoot in matches either Long Range, Mid Range or Silhouette with a BPCR smokeless is NOT allowed. There was a time about 15 or so years ago when you could shoot a "Duplex" load. This was outlawed in Silhouette first, and I believe is true even for Long Range today. They did allow Duplex loads for a few years after Silhouette did in long range competition's.

The Pedersoli Quigley is a nice piece, it is not I believe up to the standered of those made here in the US. Shiloh Sharps and C.Sharps are both located in Big Timber Montana and turn out very fine copys of the sharps 1874. Probably better than even Sharps back in the day. The C.Sharps I believe still are using Badger Barrels and this rifle is a forging. Shiloh rifles make there own barrels and the receiver is a Casting. This is the two biggest difference's between the two. I personally have no problem either way with the strength of these two actions.

Pedersoli has been making these rifles for a lot of years. Cosmetics are very good, the question is the barrels. Pedersoli makes there own barrels, if you get a good one these are hard rifles to beat, sadly all barrels from Pedersoli are not the same. You pay your money and take your chances. The one thing I have against there Quigley model ( and this is a superficial thing) is the patch box on the stock, it simply does not belong on a Cartridge Rifle.

One other thing about the strength of the Pedersoli. All of there rifles before being shipped to the states must be sent to there government for "Proof" testing. This is not a requirement here in the US any longer. I believe ( but wouldn't swear to it) that the proof load is a double charge of smokeless powder. Something to think about... In rereading your post I see you are aware of the proof Testing, I'm not going to delete that however.

As to your comments on loads. This would only be a concern for original actions. This is also in effect because of the old Trapdoor Springfields for the most part. These actions are not strong at all, not now and not then. Shooting smokeless in any of those old Trapdoors is just asking for trouble.

These old designed rifles were born in a time when there was no smokeless powder so it wasn't a concern. They shoot today Black Powder so accurately that it is hard to believe anyone would even want to play around with smokeless in them. Loading Black Powder in a breach loading falling block rifle is so easy as to be unbelieved. Working up a load is very, very simple and takes one lazy afternoon at the range and you are done. Oh there are a few tricks alright, but when compared to loading for a High Powered rifle it is child's play.

Now with that said they are accurate in there own right. They will never ever compete with a modern rifle shooting Smokeless. As an example the most popular BPCR shooting competition is by far Shilouette. If you are not familiar with this game it is shot at distances from 200 meters to 500 Meters, it also is a two minute of angle game. So accuracy is a relative thing just how much do you absolutely have to have? Well in BPCR Silhouette you need 2 MOA, get that and be consistant with your wind reading and you will win many more matches than you lose.

Also two dogs don't forget you are going to need sights for that Pedersoli. What come on it are a joke and worthless completely. You will need to invest in a very good Vernier Soule sight. And a really good front aperture sight, preferable with a level in it. Get these work up a good Black Powder load and you Sir are in for the time of your life...

Roland

 

[wboggs]

Perhaps my experience was unusual and that is a good thing. It made a lasting impression on me, that's for sure.
Agree that the metallic silhouette shooting is more fun than any I've tried.
See you live in Alabama. Have you ever been to Riverbend in N GA? World class range and members. Try to get over sometime. You will not regret it.

 

[Hombre0321]

Mr. Boggs,
I think maybe your problems with your trigger was something of an anomoly, I simply know to many of these rifles with this trigger fix that have not had any problems.

I do live in Alabama, however I am pretty recent here. My wife and I moved here 4 years ago and I have not shoot at the range you mention. For the most part I have moved on from BPCR and today spend most of my time shooting F-Class and Long Range Benchrest. I simply got tired of casting those big ole bullets, I have spent hundred of hours setting in front of that Wagg pot and don't want to do that again. It is a great shooting sport though and I keep my hand in every so often with a Silhouette match. I do know a shooter or two from Georgia though and maybe you know Jim Kidwell...

Roland

 

[bozo699]

Very very good read! I have a cheap old H&R 45/70 buffalo classic, I shoot 405 grain bullets in it, it shoots very well at 100 yards I have never papered it past there but have hit steel out to 500 with no problem, I shoot triple seven powder in it but plan on using some black powder and heavies that you mentioned Roland, I know it's just a cheapy rifle, I just bought it for having fun here at my own range, I have shot 3031 smokeless powder in it and it did okay but prefered the triple seven, I have a 1000 yd br match coming up but when I get done with that I can't wait to try this out.
Wayne.

 

[wboggs]

Roland I know Jim Kidwell quite well. One of the finest gentleman in the game. They have a world class range at Riverbend. If any of your friends want to shoot metalics or targets, have them go over there. They will be impressed.
Bill

 

[two dogs]

Appears I started a thread that worked out reasonably well. I certainly learned a lot. At this time I should add the modern Browning and Winchester highwalls along with Steve Meecham's rifles, C. Sharps and Shiloh Sharps to the top category of strong actions along with the Dakota 10 and the Ruger #1. Not sure about the Ballard.

Mike

 

[XTR]

I have a modern 1885 Highwall and a C. Sharps '74.


First of all what type of shooting do you plan to do with it?

Second, be aware that light bullets in in these big straight walled cartridges don't shoot that well. Think of trying to drive a 45ACP to 200 yards? If you are trying to drive heavy bullets at high velocities with smokeless powder the recoil is unlike anything you've probably ever experienced, it hurts, and it bruises. More than just recoil there are torsional or twisting forces that you're probably never experienced. Loaded to those levels they are not a rifle you shoot for groups.

You can load a Highwall to Ruger #1 levels, I've done it, but try to sit behind a 405 at 2000 FPS (or more) or a 350 at 2200 and you'll realize you can't print a group for anything, and you won't be shooting for a week because your shoulder feels like you got hit with a 10lb sledge. Try to shoot cast bullets at speeds above about 1350 or 1400FPS and you'll find the accuracy is less than impressive. (can't keep them on an 8.5x11 at 100 yards) Yea, it may work for a 100 yard gun but for long range, forgetaboutit. Long range BPCR shooters are pushing 535s or heavier in the 1350 range.

My hunting load for my 1885 Highwall is a 405 jacket bullet at about 1800, and it's not particularly pleasant to shoot. Even at that it's from a 100 yard zero it's dropping 2 mils at 200 yards.

 

[wboggs]

two dogs
What do you think of the Stevens switch barrel?

 

[oldhoward]

Hi, I have a Marlin what bullet could I shoot for long range? I don't think it will chamber 500 grain or heavier bullets, never tried it any way.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

oldhoward

 

[XTR]

Guys there is a reason that the tang sight for these old rifle is 6" long. The trajectory is a rainbow.

At 200 yards a 405 starting at 1800FPS MV drops on the order of 7MOA! from a 100 yard zero. That's 14 inches. Most modern bottle neck cartridges that is more like 1.5 MOA or 3" which is why a 200 yard zero works to well for modern hunting rifles. For a hunting rifle there is really no place that you can zero a 45-70 and hold dead center between 25 yds and 200 yards, the drop is just too much, you have to compensate for it. To shoot most of these bullets to 1000 yards you need about 200MOA from what you'd call a 100 yard zero (and that's not a typo, 200 MOA).

In all seriousness long range for most 45-70s is 250 yards. That same bullet with an 1800 FPS MV that drops 14 inches from a 100 yard zero to 200 yards drops another 16 inches between 200 and 250. Total drop from a 100 yard zero is 30+ inches and about 12MOA. You don't even want to start talking about wind. At 200 yards you're giving nearly 1.5 inches per MPH of wind.

Lastly, any approved long range competition for these is BPCR, that means Black Powder Cartridge Rifle. Shooting Black Powder and Cast bullets.

To the question of the Marlin, it is designed to be and is a great gun for hunting places where the shots are 100 yards or less. Trying to shoot it out to 200 and more would be fun if you like a challenge. Get a copy of Lyman's 49th and look at the reloading for 45-70s, there are 3 sections, you can use the ones for Springfields and lever guns, stay away from the section for Ruger #1s, that will end badly. Your Marlin also has some limitations for bullet length and crimping to keep things working in the action and tubular magazine. It's just not designed to be a target gun, you can do a lot of things to make a pickup go fast but it will never be a sports car.

I love shooting mine and I'm getting setup to shoot my '74 Sharps to long range in BPCR type shooting, but there is a reason that these cartridges became obsolete 125 years ago.

Another thing to recognize before you start, there is not a lot of help out there for you if you want to shoot smokeless. There is a virtual Cult of the Holy Black out there. Seriously, post a question on Castboolits or the Shiloh forums about smokeless and Jacketed bullets and there is a good chance that the first post will tell you to use BP and Cast. Or call you names for even mentioning jacketed bullets on a cast bullet site. The guys at Castboolits write "J-word" like it's N-word when referring to jacketed bullets.

The Shiloh site has a ton of great info and knowledgeable people if you really want to get started shooting these old guns, but they are pretty specific to Sharps '74s though when it comes to shooting them the technical stuff is pretty much the same whether it's a Sharps '74 or a Highwall or a Stevens 44 1/2.