Loading 32 S&W for Old Top Break

[Odyssey]

I am new to reloading. My buddy wanted to shoot his old Hopkins & Allen Safety Police top break revolver. My research led me to some charges.
First, I thought I could use the 78 grain bullets I removed with inertia puller from 32 auto rounds and brass obtained from new 32 long cartridges separated via inertia puller and trimmed to S&W short spec. I quickly learned bullet diameter from the 32 auto was too small as they fell into the case.

This lead me to reuse the the 98 grain LCRN bullets I removed from the new factory 32 longs.
I found these bullets measured 0.310". The easily fit back into the new, un-fired, trimmed cases with any need to flare the case mouth. In fact, some fell into the case. I question the quality of the crimp I got using the Lee bullet seating crimp die. I confirmed the die was adjusted correctly with Lee. I loaded (3) charges as follows:

Bullet: 98 gn Reused new LCRN
Case: New S&W long trimmed to 0.633"
C. O. L.: 0.910"
Powder: Unique @ 1.0 grains, 1.5 grains & 2.0 grains.

After test firing all three charges it was obvious that the 2 grain charge was too much. 1.0 was OK and 1.5 seemed most desirable.

I ordered 78 gn Acme LRN and new Starline 32 S&W short brass.
What can be extrapolated from above to find a starting load for the 78 grain bullet using the same Unique powder?
The Acme bullet dia, is 0.313" I am hoping it will fit more snugly in new Starline case?
Is it normal for a very small cartridge such as this 32 S&W that you can spin the bullet and move it in the case in and out by pinching it between your fingers?
How do I know when the crimp is sufficient?

 

[whatsupdoc]

Is this a 32 short or long? Short max case length is .605 long max case length is .920.
Bullet diameter is .310 to .313, and no bullet should not move in the case.

 

[Odyssey]

The proper description for the round is 32 S&W, aka 32 S&W Short.
You are correct about the max case length. Thank you for pointing out my typo. My case trimmed length of .603". Any bullet will move in the case, it is simply a matter of how much force is applied.

 

[whatsupdoc]

You ask

"Is it normal for a very small cartridge such as this 32 S&W that you can spin the bullet and move it in the case in and out by pinching it between your fingers?"

Then you reply

"Any bullet will move in the case, it is simply a matter of how much force is applied"

LOL

 

[Odyssey]

Agreed, all bullets will move in the case when sufficient force is applied to move it in the case. This is the primary reason they exit the barrel when fired.

It seemed odd to me that I was able to move the bullet in the crimped case with my fingers. I am hoping to get educated on methods to determine when you have a proper crimp on such a small round. In the past, have used a test method of marking a reloaded cartridge in the cylinder and firing other rounds and measuring the unfired marked cartridge for bullet jump. This method is great but, I would prefer to find a method I could rely on at the press.

I checked three different factory 38 special rounds I have in inventory and could not spin or move the bullet in the case with pinched fingers like I can the 32 S&W round I reloaded. I checked a factory 22LR round and could spin the round in the case with pinched fingers. Should I conclude it normal that pinched fingers on small rounds like 32 S&W and 22LR can overcome the strength of the crimp breaking the bullet loose to spin?

 

[SSL]

My first thought is; did you size the cases before landing and crimping or just drop powder, seat bullet and crimp? If you did not re-size, the cases probably were stretched by the previous bullet being seated and then withdrawn. This would leave the case mouth a loose fit along the body of the bullet. The crimp would then only contact at the mouth of the case and there would be no bullet support within the case itself. Try sizing the cases and check fit. Fit should difficult or impossible for you to insert a bullet.

 

[Odyssey]

SSL. Thank you. That makes sense. Your assumption that I did not resize is correct. I wanted to reuse the brass without re-priming. I removed the primer extractor pin from the case sizing die and tried a couple rounds but, it didn't appear to shrink the i.d. of the case so, I just used the bullet seat crimp die. For such a few number of cases, and becuause I wanted to avoid damaging the old gun, I balance scale weighed each charge and filled each case by hand.
I suspect your correct in that using previously crimped bullets and cases made it impossible to get proper crimp.
Will see what we see with the new brass and bullets.

 

[dellet]

Please take this as constructive or safety related, balanced with the fact I am not familiar with the cartridge. But am very familiar with loading antique firearms and obsolete cartridges. Also a bit familiar with the pistol.

Bottom line, you're headed for disaster unless you slow down and do it right.

New to reloading.
Antique Black powder revolver shooting smokeless.
Bullet too heavy for cartridge
Weak frame design even when it was new, of unknown origin and quality now.
Loads cobbled together from what is available, instead of what is correct.
No working knowledge of what a proper crimp is.
Not sure what bullet diameter to use.
More concerned about save 3 cents for a primer than potential catastrophe.

I am not saying what you are doing is stupid, I am saying how you seem to be going about it is.

It's a lot of fun to get something off the shelf and back on the range after 100 years. It's even more fun to do it twice.

 

[sawcarver]

I agree with the post above and trying to be helpful and constructive I have a few questions. I do load for 32 s&w, 32 Long, 32 H&R and 327 Mag

1. You trimmed back 32 long cases and then loaded without resizing?

2. The primers in the trimed 32 long were of unknown make? (From the factory ammo)

3. Where did you get the load data? 2gr of unique with a 98 gr is a 32 LONG load. Also pretty big jumps in powder for such a small case

4. Do you know the diameter of your cyl throats or barrel groves?

 

[Odyssey]

Dellet, Sawcarver, Thank you for sharing your experience. I joined the forum to learn from the folks like you. I agree safety has to be the priority and appreciate your concerns and pointing out where I may be headed for disaster. I am not offended. In hind sight, I should have not made such a general post. My specific interest was to learn how experienced reloaders check the quality of the crimp at the press. I should have made this the topic keeping the info I sought narrowly focused.
I did extensive research on the S&W cartridge, collected load recipes from various (old versions) of the popular reloading manuals and from individuals that published books on reloading and shooting these obsolete cartridges. I welcome the load recipes/sources you may have on this 32 S&W short cartridge to compare to those I have collected.
There was a lot of research that went into the cartridges I made. I believe the ones fired met all dimensional specifications on the cartridge per the reload manuals. Please point out if you have a recipe from a reputable manual that contradicts anything in my post. Trimming the S&W long brass to S&W short brass spec trims past any factory crimp area on the long case. It is not surprising that the new, unfired cases did not change diameter when run through my resizing die since they were trimmed past where the factory crimp (deformation of the case) would have taken place. I was sizing a sized case. I do not know what brand SP primer Remington used on new S&W long cartridge I started with. None of the load recipes in the reload manuals specified primmer brand. The bullets I used, sorted from the batch, measured to spec. The ones I fired had a tight crimp. The powder charges I used were well below the starting load and max loads listed for 32 S&W short with Unique. The majority of recipes I found in the manuals referenced Unique. That's why I chose Unique. As my post explained, I have ordered new 32 S&W short brass and new Acme 78 gn 32 bullets. I agree the lighter grain bullet is more appropriate for this old gun. I'll start over with the reload manual recipes for this lighter bullet. I'll start below the recommended starting loads and stay far below max load. Again, from research I believe 1gn Unique will be a light, usable load for this old gun and 1.0 grain Unique will likely be below published starting loads. I'll dial it in with my Chrony.
I'll close out this post as it has gotten off track from my interest in determining proper bullet crimp at the press. I welcome IM's if you want to share additional knowledge about loading this old round and old lemon squeezers.

 

[dellet]

As I said, I am not familiar with the exact cartridge, I have worked with 32 Rimfire converted to centerfire. It's very similar.

From Lyman 41st, mid 50's if I remember right.



Your data is not really far off. 2.0 being max load with an 85 grain bullet according to Lyman. Until you take into account that Lyman is often on the hot side at this time in history. You also need to keep in mind that this would be considered "loads for strong actions".

Your 98 grain bullet is 15% heavier and 10% longer, therefore seated 10% deeper.

Backing off max load 10% for a starting load is pretty standard practice, .2 grains, so 1.8 grains if you use the same bullet.

You will be seating the bullet about .040-.050" deeper. I would drop the starting charge another .2 grains.

If you consider the extra weight, probably closer to .5 grains. Down to 1.2-1.3 for max. and backing off that for starting. Part of the reason for this is not knowing what the case capacity of an actual 32 S&W case is compared to the one you are using.

Now you need to consider the pistol itself and this is from memory, so some will possibly be wrong.

What is fact is that it was designed for 9 grains of black powder, so loads in the range of 10-12,000 psi. These loads were used in full frame revolvers made by Colt and S&W. The break open action is considerably weaker.

This is the part I do not remember exactly, the question is if it was the long or short version of the cartridge. Since they are loaded to pressure tolerances, it does not matter much. Hopkins & Allen submitted that pistol for government testing hoping to gain a contract that would save the company. It failed on average in less than 1000 rounds. the frames tweaked and the cylinders lost timing, using factory cartridges of the time.

For me what you are doing is comparable to loading an original Colt single action, to Ruger Blackhawk loads.

Now to answer your original question. You keep adding crimp until the bullets stop moving until fired. That includes from recoil in the cylinder. So load 5, shoot 1, un-chamber the other 4 and measure. If the length changed, it's not enough crimp. That has to be balanced with not crushing the bullet and sadly it's trial and error.

 

[divingin]

Not exactly pertinent, aside from a comparison, but I'm loading 32 S&W Long for a 40 year old Pardini HP target pistol. 98 gn lead wadcutter, I use about 1.3 gn Titegroup.

Bullet diameter for the 32 rimmed cases (S&W, S&W Long, H&R, H&R Mag, etc) is all over the map. Some pistols are cut (groove diameter) to as large as .313-.314, others as small as .310. The "normal" diameter seems to be held as around .312 (though later iterations seem to be a tad larger.) Unfortunately, that means that if you're looking for accuracy, you need to slug your barrel and verify what you've got. For older guns with less robust actions, that becomes much more important as larger bullets will cause pressure issues and can lead to rapid disassembly of the firearm (and possibly shooter.)

Because of the disparities in bullet diameter, expanders are also a problem. One size doesn't fit all. If you go through the trouble of figuring out your actual ideal bullet diameter, make sure your expander is sized the same to half- to one thousandth or so smaller. NOE bullet molds makes custom M-type expanders that work very well. Crimp is fine on a revolver, but these cases may bulge if you try to put too much of a crimp on.

Hope this helps.

 

[Odyssey]

Divingin, Thanks. Understood.
Dellet, Thank you for the data. in addition to the recipes I referenced from older revisions of the popular reloading manuals, I referenced "Pet Loads" written by Ken Waters. Ken cautioned to stick with the starting load recommendations for top break revolvers that were designed for Black powder cartridges. Ken liked .06 grains Trail Boss with 76 grain bullet. I plan to see how well my Lee Pro Disk will meter .06 grains of TB using the new charge bar I ordered. I'm waiting for the new .78 grain bullets and brass arrive. The new 78 gr Acme bullets are sold as .313, same at Missouri Bullet Co. If the TB powder doesn't repeat well at .06 grains, I plan to go back to Unique. I'll be using either Federal or Winchester SP primers as this is all I could source after everyone ran out and bought up brass, bullets and primers to shoot viruses. Obviously I am not as good a shot as others that reload.