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Load Work up Seating depth Question

dusterdave173

Silver $$ Contributor
I am a rookie so here is a rookie question
I am working up a load for new barrel Varget, Lapua, CCI std primers--85.5g Bergers in a 223 1/7 twist Hawk Hill 28 inch For the initial load a good friend ran a Quick Load with my h20 info etc--it advised using a length that turns out to be about .064 off the lands at touch--I loaded 10 and the results grouped pretty decent but the speed was quite a bit lower than predicted- 2830 about 180 ft slower- 2630 fps- It is a brand new barrel --so I guessed I needed to up the charge--I have loaded up a ladder test with four charges starting again with the recommended Quick load amount--and going up .02 grains at a time
My question is when do I start testing seating depth? I am guessing that bullet will like closer to the lands??
How do i do this without using so many components
Thanks for the help
 
Keep in mind the barrel will most likely speed up once you get 100 to 200 rounds down it. I just received my new 6PPC and blew out my 100 pcs. of brass with cheap Hornady bullets, used primers, and an old partial pound of AA-2015 in order to save my good components. All I was interested in was blowing out my new brass. You can start seating depth testing anytime you like. The only way I know to do find out these parameters of the load is to shoot them.
 
As Bill said, the barrel will likely speed up during the first 100-150 rounds. I would focus on finding a powder and bullet the barrel likes first. I look at seating depth and neck tension as fine tuning once an accurate load has been developed. I never focus on velocity when working with a rifle but then again I am a BR shooter. For hunting, I understand the advantages of higher velocity but there are usually trade offs with everything in life.

Did you mean .02 grain increments or 0.2 grain increments?

Dave.
 
As Bill said, the barrel will likely speed up during the first 100-150 rounds. I would focus on finding a powder and bullet the barrel likes first. I look at seating depth and neck tension as fine tuning once an accurate load has been developed. I never focus on velocity when working with a rifle but then again I am a BR shooter. For hunting, I understand the advantages of higher velocity but there are usually trade offs with everything in life.

Dave.
I agree with you. Seems like a waste to bother with the fine tuning until the preliminary stuff is out of the way. Velocity is really close to the last thing I bother with.
 
Thanks guys that is exactly what I needed to hear--That it is ok to get the powder and bullet right then do depth etc

THANKS!!!!!!! Yes I meant .2 sorry I went to public school and yes--I spent last couple days just blowing old loads down the pipe to get her ready- am right at 200 now -Good news is almost anything I stick in has done great--I think it will really be a great barrel--Cleans Easy as can be!

Thanks!!!!!
 
I am a rookie so here is a rookie question
I am working up a load for new barrel Varget, Lapua, CCI std primers--85.5g Bergers in a 223 1/7 twist Hawk Hill 28 inch For the initial load a good friend ran a Quick Load with my h20 info etc--it advised using a length that turns out to be about .064 off the lands at touch--I loaded 10 and the results grouped pretty decent but the speed was quite a bit lower than predicted- 2830 about 180 ft slower- 2630 fps- It is a brand new barrel --so I guessed I needed to up the charge--I have loaded up a ladder test with four charges starting again with the recommended Quick load amount--and going up .02 grains at a time
My question is when do I start testing seating depth? I am guessing that bullet will like closer to the lands??
How do i do this without using so many components
Thanks for the help
As some have stated. The barrel will "speed up" in 200 to 400 rounds. We suggest that with the BERGER HYBRID TARGET and ELITE HUNTER bullets that :
A general rule of thumb with the Berger Elite Hunter and Hybrid Target bullets is to start your bullet seating depth testing at .015" off the lands. Then you work back into the cartridge case in .015" increments (.015",.030", .045", .060"). When you find a bullet seating depth that shows promise, you can test .005" to either side of that CBTO if you wish to see if accuracy can be improved. All bullet seating depth testing is done using the starting powder charge!
SEATING DEPTH TESTING FIRST. THEN VELOCITY TESTING.
 
I've been running "heavies" in .223s with long barrels in F-TR for many years. The main impediment I have encountered to load development in a brand new barrel is usually brass life, not the barrel "speeding up", which can be accounted for using charge weight. FWIW - I think it would be asking a LOT to expect your new barrel to speed up by 200 fps velocity. Something like 50 fps, maybe as much as 75 fps might be a more reasonable expectation.

As a general rule of thumb, pushing heavies (i.e. 85 to 95 gr bullets) to velocities over 2800 fps with the small .223 Rem cartridge typically means pressures that are close to, or possibly even over the SAAMI max of 545K psi. In my hands, this often causes extremely poor brass life. This problem may be exacerbated by the fact that .223 Rem brass typically grows by at least .005" to .008" at the shoulder during the first firing. Because it is [relatively] short with respect to the chamber, .223 Rem brass is even more susceptible to blown primers when using full-pressure loads in virgin brass. The firing pin pushes the case forward until the shoulder bottoms out in the chamber, leaving a slightly larger gap between the base of the case and bolt face, which allows the primer to come out. I don't really understand exactly why a few thousandths larger gap would create a problem with blown primers, but it does. Once a primer is blown, the case is ruined due to enlargement of the primer pocket. For that reason, I generally fire-form .223 Rem brass using a reduced load that is well below SAAMI max for the first firing. This approach also takes care of the the barrel speeding up process, as that should be complete by the time the fire-forming is finished.

If you choose to use a similar reduced load fire-forming approach, I'd expect you might find a very nice node for the 85.5s somewhere in the 2725 to 2775 fps range. I routinely use such reduced loads with other heavy bullets (88s, 90s, 95s) in practice and/or local club matches, and they can shoot extremely well for that purpose. After determining "optimal" charge weight, I try to cover a reasonable seating depth test range. It is usually pretty obvious where the various .224" heavies want to tune in with respect to seatinmg depth optimum, as in the groups often shrink from perhaps the 0.3 to 0.5 MOA range down to one ragged hole when you find the sweet spot. If necessary, you can start using a .005" increment in order to cover a greater seating depth range, then re-rest some region of interest using a finer increment such as .003".

The key to maintaining such a fire-forming load is to monitor velocity carefully at every outing, because the barrel will speed up as it becomes lapped in by the continued firing. Thus, you may need to decrease the charge weight by a tenth grain or two from time to time to maintain the same velocity you obtained during the load workup earlier in the barrel's life. It's really not that big of a deal, I've done this for years with every new .223 Rem barrel I've used, which is quite a few. At the end of this process, you will have fire-formed brass where the casehead may be slightly work-hardened, but more importantly, where the shoulder will only be bumped back .001" to .002" during the re-sizing process, thereby minimizing the chance for blown primers with subsequent full pressure loads. You will have a fully lapped-in barrel, and you will have developed a better feel for how the rifle/load performs, and what it wants in order to shoot optimally. I view these all as being beneficial for developing a full-pressure load.
 
As others have said, don't waste time developing loads until the barrel is broken in. Years ago I had a lot of frustration trying to get loads to work until I figured that out. Now when I get a new barrel, I take the opportunity to fire form new brass and use up old powders that I bought but don't like. I do that for about 150 rounds and then do my load development.
 
I've been running "heavies" in .223s with long barrels in F-TR for many years. The main impediment I have encountered to load development in a brand new barrel is usually brass life, not the barrel "speeding up", which can be accounted for using charge weight. FWIW - I think it would be asking a LOT to expect your new barrel to speed up by 200 fps velocity. Something like 50 fps, maybe as much as 75 fps might be a more reasonable expectation.

As a general rule of thumb, pushing heavies (i.e. 85 to 95 gr bullets) to velocities over 2800 fps with the small .223 Rem cartridge typically means pressures that are close to, or possibly even over the SAAMI max of 545K psi. In my hands, this often causes extremely poor brass life. This problem may be exacerbated by the fact that .223 Rem brass typically grows by at least .005" to .008" at the shoulder during the first firing. Because it is [relatively] short with respect to the chamber, .223 Rem brass is even more susceptible to blown primers when using full-pressure loads in virgin brass. The firing pin pushes the case forward until the shoulder bottoms out in the chamber, leaving a slightly larger gap between the base of the case and bolt face, which allows the primer to come out. I don't really understand exactly why a few thousandths larger gap would create a problem with blown primers, but it does. Once a primer is blown, the case is ruined due to enlargement of the primer pocket. For that reason, I generally fire-form .223 Rem brass using a reduced load that is well below SAAMI max for the first firing. This approach also takes care of the the barrel speeding up process, as that should be complete by the time the fire-forming is finished.

If you choose to use a similar reduced load fire-forming approach, I'd expect you might find a very nice node for the 85.5s somewhere in the 2725 to 2775 fps range. I routinely use such reduced loads with other heavy bullets (88s, 90s, 95s) in practice and/or local club matches, and they can shoot extremely well for that purpose. After determining "optimal" charge weight, I try to cover a reasonable seating depth test range. It is usually pretty obvious where the various .224" heavies want to tune in with respect to seatinmg depth optimum, as in the groups often shrink from perhaps the 0.3 to 0.5 MOA range down to one ragged hole when you find the sweet spot. If necessary, you can start using a .005" increment in order to cover a greater seating depth range, then re-rest some region of interest using a finer increment such as .003".

The key to maintaining such a fire-forming load is to monitor velocity carefully at every outing, because the barrel will speed up as it becomes lapped in by the continued firing. Thus, you may need to decrease the charge weight by a tenth grain or two from time to time to maintain the same velocity you obtained during the load workup earlier in the barrel's life. It's really not that big of a deal, I've done this for years with every new .223 Rem barrel I've used, which is quite a few. At the end of this process, you will have fire-formed brass where the casehead may be slightly work-hardened, but more importantly, where the shoulder will only be bumped back .001" to .002" during the re-sizing process, thereby minimizing the chance for blown primers with subsequent full pressure loads. You will have a fully lapped-in barrel, and you will have developed a better feel for how the rifle/load performs, and what it wants in order to shoot optimally. I view these all as being beneficial for developing a full-pressure load.
Extraordinary post, with good information that would apply to other loading situations.
 
Thanks to all for the great info
I really appreciate it! I will soak all this up and get to work
It was my first time with a Quick load recipe and wondered about the seating depth ( COAL ) that it said use--I do have a long throat set up by my guy for the 85.5 and have room to try things without jamming it etc Today the barrel seemed to "level out" and speeds were more like I expected using known load I had from previous
I think that 200 low ( from QL predictions) was just new barrel and a light starting load
Zero pressure signs so far so I have room to step on the gas a little
Will report THANKS again to all here I read it all and learn everyday
 

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