Load Tuning 6PPC

[Ghansen]

Hi All,


Another morning down the range and this is now the second target I have posted, and I am looking for some constructive comment on my load development. Panda>Shilen .262>Weaver 36x> McMillan Stock .257 neck insert


After fire-forming I used a load of 28.3 VVN133 with Berger Column 64's (in Lapua brass) and other loads as well.
There was some good results from the 3 shot groups with seating -5 or +5 thou. into or out of the lands. Even -10 shot well.

I created some new loads at up to 29.7, and with the wind light and shifty mainly L/R and only using range ticker for flags maybe I shot where I should have with a few groups showing flat horizontal. I did strike a good condition though and posted a .148 which made me feel like I might be able to do this.

My load of 29.5 (-5) is on another target and was dead flat for 3 shots at .237. I still put 2 into 1 for my sighters with 28.3grns.

I look forward to your comments,

The groups on this target are all 5 shot.

Thanks Geoff

 

[jonbearman]

Why not try 29.0 grains at -.010 and shoot a couple 5 shot groups and see if you can repeat what you did. If you notice 28.3 and 29.5 shot almost the same group which tells me you are close at 29.0.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Are you using wind flags? Some of those look to be conditions more than tuning

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Sorry. Just seen that you were. Looks like your loads are close just watch the flags closer and practice on that

 

[Ghansen]

I was invited to participate in the clubs monthly comp, and "done o.k"

It was suggested I trial a run of groups at 29.0 grains N133 (jonbearman), and I ran with that in the match. Targets attached

Afterwards, I practiced with some other trial loads @ 29.5 -.010, and 28.3 -.010 & -.005. 28.3 -.005 still performs, even though it is a light load ?!

 

[LHSmith]

You don't say if you pre-load or load at the match.If your just starting out with a 6 PPC in a real bench gun, I would not use N-133----too quirky for beginners. It has a learning curve that takes a LOT of shooting sessions to learn ( notice I did not say master). H-322 would be my choice (light to medium loads), LT-32 would also be good. Different lots of N-133 produced through the years yield differing burn rates (as with virtually all powders), usually simply referred to the year noted in the lot number, i.e. N-133 '98, 03, etc. Pre-loading N-133 at a match almost never works well if your goal is to be above mid-pack.
To get the most meaningful info from your expenditure of those good bullets and powder, I advise you to get a good set of windflags as soon as you can afford them (no Caldwell).
Get T. Boyer's book " The Book of Rifle Accuracy", and watch Jack Neary's tuning tip's on Youtube.

 

[Ghansen]

You don't say if you pre-load or load at the match.

Thank you for your reply,

My rounds are pre-loaded a day or 2 before after I determine what I want to achieve for the day. I have been studying Jack Neary's videos. There is a lot of experience shared throughout here and those videos!

Flags were up for the day for the field, and were comp quality, and the load I chose for the day indicated it was a safe choice for an "medium average" aggregate score. I am refining my choices, and the lab work is still in progress but the results were pretty much what I expected for that particular choice. The gun almost does the shooting itself, I will just try and focus the load for better definition in the result.

I have seen many a shooter reload at the range, and that is fine, I just haven't leant that way yet. Everything is preparation before I undertake the task.

After an extended absence from the sport, I think part of it for me is just the enjoyment, though I heed your advice on powder choice, and generally all advice. After only a few range sessions, I am looking in hope at reducing my average group size (per targets) from the 2's and aiming into the 1's on my initial curve. I wouldn't be able to keep up with a lot of you guys simply because of the numbers tallied in age, experience, expertise and equipment, but making a few friends along the way will add pleasure to a reducing group size.

Geoff

 

[LHSmith]

You don't say if you pre-load or load at the match.

Thank you for your reply,

My rounds are pre-loaded a day or 2 before after I determine what I want to achieve for the day. I have been studying Jack Neary's videos. There is a lot of experience shared throughout here and those videos!

I have seen many a shooter reload at the range, and that is fine, I just haven't leant that way yet. Everything is preparation before I undertake the task.

After an extended absence from the sport, I think part of it for me is just the enjoyment, though I heed your advice on powder choice, and generally all advice. After only a few range sessions, I am looking in hope at reducing my average group size (per targets) from the 2's and aiming into the 1's on my initial curve. I wouldn't be able to keep up with a lot of you guys simply because of the numbers tallied in age, experience, expertise and equipment, but making a few friends along the way will add pleasure to a reducing group size.

Geoff

Pre-loading can work if you take multiple loads (3 perhaps) with you. I shot BR for 10 years before reading Tony's book....and it validated a lot of info I gained in that time, and dispelled a lot of erroneous info bantered about in loading areas at matches (some just bad info, some just to play head games).

 

[Ghansen]

I pre loaded 4 variations for today, with one set for the match, and the others to accumulate test/practice results. Once I am satisfied in all aspects with my case and loading prep , I will probably carry some pre weighed charges if I can determine that aspect. It would be fairly easy to fill and seat to cope with some environmental changes.

Some of my test loads I think look good at the moment but... I am trying to re define and compile results before it becomes an option for competition.

Todays choice was a safe option that appeared statistically as such in my tests to date, and re proved itself. In reality it looks (to me) like it can be tightened up a bit 'mechanically' before I become the X factor.

 

[artbosco]

6PPC bullets in the 66 to 68 grain range Like to be stuffed into the rifling as a general rule. Jumping is a no-no with this cartridge. The best two nodes are in the low to mid 29's and high 29's to low 30 grain range. I prefer the low 29's. Less wear and tear. Experiment some more using that criteria. You're getting close.

P.S. I Strongly recommend you do two things: Purchase The Book of Rifle Accuracy by Tony Boyer the definitive guide or bible on the 6PPC http://www.rifleaccuracybook.com/ and frequent and ask questions in http://benchrest.com/forum.php where most of the better 6PPC shooters reside.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

IMO, when rules and weight allow, a tuner is much easier to learn to use properly than learning to tune to the conditions by powder charge/seating depth, by a large margin. I pretty firmly believe that the 10-1/2lb weight limit is the biggest impediment to much wider tuner use in our sport.


Judging by several discussions that have/are taking place on the various forums of late, I think we are just beginning to head down the tuner path on a larger scale. Once we clear the weight issue, by one means or another, I think it's a done deal...but nothing moves fast in this game. Tuning the old way still works, too. For those that do it better than the rest of us..it can work very well. So long as that's the case, there will be a segment that chooses to use that method.


I for one, will never go back to tuning that way until something better than tuners comes along. Yes, I very much believe in tuners as well as make and sell them. But, all tuners work on the same basic principle. I feel like the sooner you can get with someone who is successful at tuning with one, see how they work and should be used..the happier you'll be. There are different methods for using a tuner. Even having one and never adjusting it has some advantage over not having one at all. I do feel like this method leaves a tuner's best feature on the table..that being the ability to tune the rifle at the bench.--Mike Ezell

 

[Tim Singleton]

Your loads that are completely flat are between nodes. You either need to go up or down 1/2 a grain to build in some vertical to the load.
The problem with pre loading is it maybe great in the morning and awful in the afternoon or vice versa.

I highly recommend watching all of Jack Neary YouTube video on loading and tuning 6ppc. He uses the same method as Tony Boyer to find the right seating depth. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7SZWvn68bRU

You are kinda all over the place trying this then that on seating depth and powder weights. You need a method to find the right seating depth that works with as wide a powder charge node as you can

Across the top are three different charges of powder down are four different seating depths. In less than 50 rounds you KNOW what the right seating depth is. Then it's on to keeping in tune thru the day

 

[Tim Singleton]

I agree with the other guys 133 is to hard for me to figure out. I've shot some really great groups that are more than offset by the really big ones.

I can work with LT32 and manage to stay in tune better than I can 133
In other words I can agg better with it than I can with 133

 

[Ghansen]

I know you keep saying to watch Jack Neary and well, I have watched them numerous times.

Charge weights have been stacked between 28.3 and 29.7 incrementally, and the targets have provided feedback.

Any deviation to the core principle from Jack Neary or others with me adjusting seating depths is just my exploration for those loads.

LT32 is not available in Australia that I know of. So ADI equivalents, Benchmark, VV and RL powders are the go here.

This link is to a file showing some but not all test targets. So hard to post a meaningful individual file here with the size restriction. (this link is a relatively small 230k file)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pmbx7dxbqiradex/various.pdf?dl=0

I hope you can appreciate where I am going with this, it is certainly not disrespecting anyone on this site.

Tim, I should have done a representation like your target but mine needs to be compiled more so than presented. My error. The 6BR load development will benefit, but the PPC has been enjoyable.

Geoff

 

[Tim Singleton]

None taken by me

Once seating depth is found. its a matter of staying in tune. A load that shot great today may not tomorrow. Or even later the same day. That's just the way it is.

Jack does a nice job explaining how groups form and understanding what that means then what to do with different powder charges

That was the main reason I referenced his videos. When the gun is shooting really flat it's telling you it's out of tune and a change in powder is needed to bring it back in tune. If you are already at the high end then going down a half grain will usually do it. If it's a light load and shooting flat go up.

 

[gpoldblue]

To Tim.....If the load is shooting flat,then the horizontal "may" be caused by wind.....right? So you add vertical to the load...right? Well,how are you gonna shoot a 0.0xx" group with built in vertical?? Just asking. I'm still trying to learn. Thanks.

 

[LHSmith]

To Tim.....If the load is shooting flat,then the horizontal "may" be caused by wind.....right? So you add vertical to the load...right? Well,how are you gonna shoot a 0.0xx" group with built in vertical?? Just asking. I'm still trying to learn. Thanks.

I'm not Tim, so I hope you and he don't mind my post. It depends what your goal is? Do you want to shoot one small group (aka a screamer in a match)...or do you want to shoot well enough through the course of 5 matches to win the agg? A gun in true tune will shoot tiny triangular groups, a gun that just shot a group in the zero's is on the ragged edge of going out of tune, and when it looses tune the conditions have a profound effect (i.e. usually results in major group enlargement). Most matches the shooter who wins the agg is not the shooter who shot the screamer of the day. For some perspective - the record agg at 100 yds ( 5 five shot groups) is ~0.1242" while the record small group (5-shot) is 0.0077".
Also, horizontal can be load induced, specifically seat depth and/or neck tension.

 

[Patch700]

A gun in true tune will shoot tiny triangular groups, a gun that just shot a group in the zero's is on the ragged edge of going out of tune, and when it looses tune the conditions have a profound effect (i.e. usually results in major group enlargement).
[/quote]




This rite here in my opinion is a quote that is worthy of repeating.... Sadly and admittedly through my own stubborn ways this took me some time and a fair amount of components to realize. I like to keep and analyze ALL of the loads I test along with all the governing factors so I can go back later and see patterns etc with respect to finding tunes as it were that I may not notice ( or want to notice lol ) at the time of testing.

Another key word in the LHSmith quote is the word "When" with respect to losing tune (if you are on the ragged edge so to speak).. I don't believe it to be an "if" but a "When".

How many times has a person worked up a load on Monday at 7 am with a given weather condition and found that within a node when he gets to the high or low end of the spectrum of that load it is shooting outstanding (albeit printing a little bit off )... And then later that evening after dinner when back at the bench he finds this same outstanding load to be one that will show signs of instability? Yet when you go back into the middle of the node you KNOW that if you read the condition correctly it will at the very least find it's way into a somewhat decent group. To me if I have a load worked up that will group consistently and print consistently I will take that over one that will group a bit better once in a while but has me guessing where it may print.

 

[LHSmith]

Sadly and admittedly through my own stubborn ways this took me some time and a fair amount of components to realize.

Right there with ya, I'd be embarrassed to say how many years of competitive shooting it took for the light to come on ( along with mentoring from some world class BR shooters).

 

[Tim Singleton]

To Tim.....If the load is shooting flat,then the horizontal "may" be caused by wind.....right? So you add vertical to the load...right? Well,how are you gonna shoot a 0.0xx" group with built in vertical?? Just asking. I'm still trying to learn. Thanks.

You are right the load is wind sensitive and shooting flat. Measuring big. You build in a half bullet hole of vertical and the load is less wind sensitive.