Load development techniques for bad shots?

[_Raining]

Here is my most recent load development with a 30" Criterion 223 barrel on a Tikka T3 with 1lb trigger. Rear squeeze bag and Atlas Bipod. Lapua Brass, CCI 400, Berger 80 VLD, Varget. .223 Rem Match chamber with a .090 fb and .254nk with .2245 throat

Raw Targets: https://imgur.com/a/HOAnIOM
Range Buddy Targets: https://imgur.com/a/3MrvwXe

The problem is that I am not usually consistent in my group sizes with the same load. I have a Joypod on order from Brunos but it seems like every month that goes by, a month gets added to the expected availability date. Not sure how much a Joypod would help though since I am not consistent with my 6 Dasher shot off a Seb Mini.

What are some things I can take away from these groups knowing that I am not very consistent? Or do I give up trying on my own and trick a FTR shooter into being my friend?

It seems like the 120 jump is bad all around. Group size on the 40 and 80 jumps at 24.6 seem good but again, inconsistency means this may just be luck. 25 is also good on the 40/80 if you remove the outlier but I'm not a huge fan of just removing shots you don't like. Jam 10 POI on 23.8 and 24.2 are close but the groups seem erratic. Jump 40 POI on 24.6 and 25 are also close, same for 23.8 and 24.2. The POI differences seem too small to really be sure it is harmonics in powder charge and not just a bad shooter having inconsistent cheek pressure or imperfect parallax.

If the internet didn't exist I would end up rechecking Jam 5, Jump 40, and Jump 80 (24.6 and 25 only).

 

[David Christian]

@_Raining, I would start by reading this thread.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/
In the very first post a list of precise steps are given. Might be worth a shot to try...

 

[jds holler]

I guess I would ask you why did you go from a jam, to a .040 jump?
I would try a touch, or ten off I think.

Aside from that, why not just accept YOUR groups as your groups, and enjoy the process of improving YOUR technique, consistency and process. We could ALL probably find someone who shoots our equipment better than we do, but -- where does that lead.

Good luck, and enjoy your rifle and the process of working up a great load for it. jd

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Start with figuring out what is causing the erratic POI shifts in your technique.

Are you pushing on the butt with your shoulder? Are you clamped down on the comb with your cheek? How about your grip on the stock?

The point is that there is not a piece of equipment out there that will compensate for variable stock loading. Can you free-recoil it?

From your post, it sounds like you tested seating depths of:
.010 into the lands
.005 into the lands
.040 Jump
.080 Jump
.120 jump

When testing seating depths, you are likely to find sweet spots that are only .006 - .009" across. If you do large steps, you are likely to find a sweet spot only if you get lucky.

I have learned that the powder charge test is only good for a small window around the seating depth at which it was done. For example, at .005 into the lands in your example, I'd work the 24.6gr load and work from .011 in (jam) to .015 jump in .003 increments. You'll likely find it in there.

Good luck,
Keith

 

[_Raining]

Start with figuring out what is causing the erratic POI shifts in your technique.

Are you pushing on the butt with your shoulder? Are you clamped down on the comb with your cheek? How about your grip on the stock?

The point is that there is not a piece of equipment out there that will compensate for variable stock loading. Can you free-recoil it?

From your post, it sounds like you tested seating depths of:
.010 into the lands
.005 into the lands
.040 Jump
.080 Jump
.120 jump

When testing seating depths, you are likely to find sweet spots that are only .006 - .009" across. If you do large steps, you are likely to find a sweet spot only if you get lucky.

I have learned that the powder charge test is only good for a small window around the seating depth at which it was done. For example, at .005 into the lands in your example, I'd work the 24.6gr load and work from .011 in (jam) to .015 jump in .003 increments. You'll likely find it in there.

Good luck,
Keith

I was following the Berger test for VLDs, it seems very coarse as I have read on other threads in this forum that a difference of 3 thou can push you out of a node but this seemed like a starting point and I am not sure I can shoot well enough to see a difference in 3 thou:
"Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds"

I just added in 5 Jam and 4 powder charges per depth.

I try to be consistent with my shoulder pressure and cheek weld. I was dry firing and noticed that the crosshairs moved about 1 moa if I didn't hold the rifle fairly tight but even doing that I noticed sometimes it would move and other it wouldn't. Perhaps I need to just dry fire non stop with one of those aperture scope attachments to do it indoors. I don't think free recoil will work out so well with a soft rear bag, non sled bipod and 1 lb trigger. My Dasher has a 6oz trigger and a front bag rider with a harder rear bag but the consistency doesn't seem to be there, free recoil seems to open the groups up more so then pulling the stock into my shoulder.

 

[_Raining]

Aside from that, why not just accept YOUR groups as your groups, and enjoy the process of improving YOUR technique, consistency and process. We could ALL probably find someone who shoots our equipment better than we do, but -- where does that lead.

I was joking about tricking a FTR shooter to being my friend but the idea would be to have a pro shoot the groups and once a good load is found then I shoot that load and I will know that any bad group is my fault and not the rifles or ammos.

 

[_Raining]

I guess I would ask you why did you go from a jam, to a .040 jump?
I would try a touch, or ten off I think.

It is my understanding that VLDs can be very tricky with seating depth so I used the Berger recommendation of 10 jam, 40/80/120 jump. I just added a 5 Jam and did it over a series of powder charges.

 

[_Raining]

@_Raining, I would start by reading this thread.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/
In the very first post a list of precise steps are given. Might be worth a shot to try...

I have read that but it requires a good shooter who can say, these are the same POI because of the interaction of powder charge and barrel harmonics whereas for me it is, is this from harmonics or because I don't have a consistent cheek weld, trigger pull, forward pressure, eyes good enough to set up parallax perfectly, recoil management etc. I have seen youtube ocw videos where the POI is massive but with my rifles POIs are close enough together to question if it was the rifle/ammo or me.

 

[Charwell]

Rifle , ammo , you , or the wind. Are you using wind flags?

 

[JimSC]

My 26" Criterion barrel likes the 80's .075 off and 23.5 Varget. target attached

On the bad shot part I am a newbie at this stuff myself and still have a long way to go but so far this what I have found that helps me the most. Maybe some of it will help you also

practice practice and more practice. Burn out that Criterion and order another and burn that one out

Study technique videos on youtube then video tape yourself or have a friend record you. Shoot a few 5 shot groups and evaluate your consistency and form. Be honest with yourself, if possible have a target cam recording at the same time also so you can look for what caused that flyer

Get into competition at local club matches as soon as possible. I wasted a year by not doing that, thinking I wasn't good enough yet. I found out I will never be good enough, shoot a 190 and you raise the goal to 195 get the 195 and you want a clean target. Since competing in matches I have made every mistake in the book and shot some really crappy scores. The good news is the scores are getting less crappy with every month. You will find a lot of good people who are willing to help out rookies at these matches. With a bit of luck you might end up with a good mentor/coach

never think you can buy NRA high master, good midprice equipment can take you a long way. At this point $1500 dollars worth of ammo down range will do you more good than a $1500 reloading toy or a $5000 scope.

Learning wind is still the hardest thing of all. Buy or make some wind flags. A piece of stiff wire or some fiberglass driveway markers with some pink boundary tape from Lowes will work.

focus on what will make a difference - https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/06/09/how-much-does-it-matter-overall-summary/

learn how to practice - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OUYHAIW/?tag=accuratescom-20

get a good .22 LR bolt gun and start shooting 100 rounds at 100 yards once a week. Use the same ammo each week shot at the same style targets and score them. Then keep a log and and track your progress. It helps with learning wind cycles, position building, trigger technique, and focus just as well as centerfire practice will without barrel burnout. If 100 gets boring try 200 on a windy day, talk about a slice of humble pie. If you have a bad week at the range, shrug it off. It happens, learn from your mistakes

good luck and persist - Jim

 

[alinwa]

I

Get into competition at local club matches as soon as possible. I wasted a year by not doing that, thinking I wasn't good enough yet. I found out I will never be good enough.........

DUDE! I'm with Jim on this one....... truer words were never spake.

JUST DO IT

 

[Billy 30-06]

I would try a different bullet that's not jump sensitive. 77gr SMKs are a lot cheaper, shoot well with Varget and don't care where you seat them. Or try some Federal GMM ammo.
Billy

 

[CharlieNC]

First of all many of your groups are +/- in the 0.5moa range, which is not bad at all shooting from a bipod. So don't beat yourself up thinking you are a poor shooter. Now, just interpret the results. First 25gr is bad on everything, so dismiss that. Then the longest 120 jump went to crap. Study the remaining results to help fine tuning.

Take a look at the 80.5 FB, accurate and not as picky on seating depth.

For me shooting groups is not as insightful as shooting the dot drill. The target has 20 1/2in dots on a sheet. At 300yd shoot each dot once, and decifer why the shot hit where it did. Easier to learn than studying a group when its over. Helped me learn much faster this way.

 

[mikecr]

Could be any of many things. Like it could be a scope problem. A firing pin slip, bolt timing issue, trigger sear issue, bedding of this or that, flawed approach to load development, bad primer seating, a bad action with case preps, etc.

You could back off the charge and do full seating testing again. This time including 10/20/30 off.

 

[Webster]

Here is my most recent load development with a 30" Criterion 223 barrel on a Tikka T3 with 1lb trigger. Rear squeeze bag and Atlas Bipod. Lapua Brass, CCI 400, Berger 80 VLD, Varget. .223 Rem Match chamber with a .090 fb and .254nk with .2245 throat

Raw Targets: https://imgur.com/a/HOAnIOM
Range Buddy Targets: https://imgur.com/a/3MrvwXe

The problem is that I am not usually consistent in my group sizes with the same load. I have a Joypod on order from Brunos but it seems like every month that goes by, a month gets added to the expected availability date. Not sure how much a Joypod would help though since I am not consistent with my 6 Dasher shot off a Seb Mini.

What are some things I can take away from these groups knowing that I am not very consistent? Or do I give up trying on my own and trick a FTR shooter into being my friend?

It seems like the 120 jump is bad all around. Group size on the 40 and 80 jumps at 24.6 seem good but again, inconsistency means this may just be luck. 25 is also good on the 40/80 if you remove the outlier but I'm not a huge fan of just removing shots you don't like. Jam 10 POI on 23.8 and 24.2 are close but the groups seem erratic. Jump 40 POI on 24.6 and 25 are also close, same for 23.8 and 24.2. The POI differences seem too small to really be sure it is harmonics in powder charge and not just a bad shooter having inconsistent cheek pressure or imperfect parallax.

If the internet didn't exist I would end up rechecking Jam 5, Jump 40, and Jump 80 (24.6 and 25 only).

Sounds like you have experience shooting. Some of the groups have 1 shot out of the group. It's probably you. Are you aware of the sight picture when the gun goes off? Are you using wind flags? I have spent 45 years working on bench skills. You need to be aware of every thing you are doing. How you shoulder the rifle, how you hold it, how you place your hands ect. An endless list. I slide the rifle forward and back, if the cross hair moves left or right the V in the sand bag needs to be adjusted. Factory stock 6BR varmint rifle. When I first got my first 6BR with a Kreiger barrel it forced me to work on bench skills because I knew the rifle was capable of shooting under .5" groups.

 

[JohnKielly]

Maybe?

 

[_Raining]

Sounds like you have experience shooting. Some of the groups have 1 shot out of the group. It's probably you. Are you aware of the sight picture when the gun goes off? Are you using wind flags? I have spent 45 years working on bench skills. You need to be aware of every thing you are doing. How you shoulder the rifle, how you hold it, how you place your hands ect. An endless list. I slide the rifle forward and back, if the cross hair moves left or right the V in the sand bag needs to be adjusted. Factory stock 6BR varmint rifle. When I first got my first 6BR with a Kreiger barrel it forced me to work on bench skills because I knew the rifle was capable of shooting under .5" groups.

My experience is that I have shot out a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel and about 1500 rounds through my 308. I have done some F Class matches and gotten 2nd and 3rd place but that doesn't mean much as there are only a few guys who show up that can shoot scores of 595+. My scores were 587, 591 and a few between. This is 20 shots at 300 and 40 at 600, unlimited sighters for the 300 yard and first round at 600.

I don't really know anything about reading the wind, my adjustments are all based on previous shots. That is one of the main reasons that I got the 223, so that I can have a fun gun to practice reading the wind as it will be more exaggerated then my 6 Dasher and less brutal to shoot then the 308 (I figure I will learn more if I am not getting punched in the shoulder every trigger pull). But before I can do that, I need to have confidence in my load and my technique. At 100 yards you can assume I f*cked up those outliers. But at 600, if I assume it was the wind then my brain will make a connection of the mirage I see equates to that far of a deflection which is bad. My goal with the 223 is consistent .5 MOA or better 10 shot groups at 100 then move on to practicing at 600. My avg with the 6.5 was around .75 (10 shots) at 100 yards with some around .4X and some .9X so consistency is definitely an issue. I think I need to spend some time dry firing at home to get my crosshairs steady when the firing pin drops (now I notice sometimes it moves left and sometimes it does not, even if I focus very hard on keeping things consistent)

I should look into getting some wind flags although I can't use them past 100 yards (2-600 yard range is Talladega CMP so there is no going down range, they do have wind flags down the range on the sides high up in the air though). Hopefully some dingus doesn't shoot it at the 100 yard range. Someone else suggested wind flags and my first though was "at 100 yards, wtf this guy talking about" then I played with some numbers on applied ballistics app and I was shocked just how much it can move at 100 yards. It was fairly windy during this load dev session and I did notice some mirage in the scope and the target was shifting back and forth sometimes but I was fairly sure it did not move any of the times I pulled the trigger but I could be wrong.

I have a 10-50 power scope, I made sure to check parallax and I don't seem to have an issue keeping the crosshairs steady, at least before I pull the trigger.

 

[_Raining]

Maybe?

I understand that wind is the most important thing but if you are not consistent then you will end up falsely associating the wind flag and mirage with an incorrect value when you are the one that is actually at fault. Then you are just reinforcing bad habits and incorrect assumptions of the effects of wind.

 

[JohnKielly]

I understand that wind is the most important thing .......

You missed the other point - hard holding - which means addressing the rifle in exactly the same way shot to shot, positioning the rifle on target ditto & releasing the shot ditto.

If all else is coming up pear shaped, than maybe that's your problem.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

there's always golf...