Load 6 Creed with non-expanding fluted bullets?

[KLB]

As of now I have only reloaded shot shells. I'd like to get into reloading rifle cartridges.

My goal is to load 6 creedmoor with non-expanding fluted bullets, roughly 103 grains. I don't believe any manufacturer is doing that yet… so I may never find fluted .243 projectiles. But I believe hard nondeforming (penetrating) bullets could take small but fast (over 3000 fps) calibers currently excelling in long range target shooting plus varmint and pronghorn hunting and elevate them into very versatile hunting loads on most species smaller than elk. Lehigh has 10mm and other handgun loads in XD. Underwood has XD and XP in rifle cartridges. And there are Honey Badger handgun loads. But fluted rifle offerings are very slim and usually in large dangerous game ammo for the penetration… but it's speed that would really make the flutes deliver a massive wound cavity! Plus, smaller calibers tend to lack penetration and blood trails... so a hard penetrating bullet with flutes in 6 Creed makes sense to me. Mushrooming would prevent the flutes from distributing the energy outward.

I don't know reloading. Maybe some of you real reloaders can give pros or cons of this idea, or know where to find fluted, non-deforming .243 bullets.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

I suspect just a handgun gimmick. They certainly wont fly at higher velocities.

 

[Bill K]

Could something like the bullets from Hammer works work for what you want ? They seem to be tougher than LeHigh's.

 

[boltfluter]

With non-deforming bullets you will have no wound cavity. Basic physics. Pistol bullets and rifle bullets live in two different worlds, velocity wise. Fluted pistol bullets promote expansion at relatively low velocities.
Paul

 

[KLB]

With non-deforming bullets you will have no wound cavity. Basic physics. Pistol bullets and rifle bullets live in two different worlds, velocity wise. Fluted pistol bullets promote expansion at relatively low velocities.
Paul

Thanks, but honestly I'd need to see evidence that flutes that cause excellent wound cavities at slow handgun speeds won't also cause massive wound cavities at higher rifle speeds. It seems to me the effect of the flutes would be way more dramatic at higher speeds… intuitively that would be the real basic physics.

 

[KLB]

Could something like the bullets from Hammer works work for what you want ? They seem to be tougher than LeHigh's.

There is a good selection of hard monolithic bullets designed for penetration, Hornady CX for example. I'm looking to get penetration combined with excellent shock and a large wound cavity for quick ethical kills and a blood trail. That would be the purpose of flutes on a non-deforming penetrating bullet… to add severe shock to penetration. I still want to try flutes on a 6 CM.

 

[KLB]

Thanks, but honestly I'd need to see evidence that flutes that cause excellent wound cavities at slow handgun speeds won't also cause massive wound cavities at higher rifle speeds. It seems to me the effect of the flutes would be way more dramatic at higher speeds… intuitively that would be the real basic physics.

If what you say is true regarding flutes not performing at high speeds, then what speed range does provide good performance with flutes? What are the minimum and maximum speeds?

 

[KLB]

I suspect just a handgun gimmick. They certainly wont fly at higher velocities.

I'm not sure what "higher velocities" you are referring to, but several manugacturers already load rifle cartridges with fluted bullets. Granted they are large caliber, slower, and mostly for large or dangerous game. Still, no one has given me any reason to believe that flutes will not perform at high speed— say over 3000 fps.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

I'm not sure what "higher velocities" you are referring to, but several manugacturers already load rifle cartridges with fluted bullets. Granted they are large caliber, slower, and mostly for large or dangerous game. Still, no one has given me any reason to believe that flutes will not perform at high speed— say over 3000 fps.

I'm considering accuracy, not wound performance. There has to be a reason that the mainstream manufacturers don't make a, say 6mm, fluted projectile.

I would be interested to see some results, but I suspect that they will only be effective at short ranges, due to the BC value of the projectiles and resultant slowing over distance. Having said that, when hunting in NZ bush and never having a long shot, I always used the heaviest projectile available - say 174 round nose in the 303 for the same reasons. Had a fluted bullet in .312 been available, I would have tried it, for sure.

 

[Ranger188]

( this is me talking out of my as$)
I would think unless those flutes ( Honey badger like) are VERY concentric
or balanced, they might cause a lot of imbalance at higher (rifle) speeds.
Might cause tumbling. Guessing the manufactures have try it and it didn't work
or you might have seen more of them out by now.
Also they would loose velocity like crazy.
Give Hornady, Sierra a call and see what they say.
Maybe @barefooter56 might help out here, or at least point you
in the right direction.
Unless someone wants to market something new, the whole monolithic and lead
and copper core bullets work pretty well now and kill's game.

 

[KLB]

I'm considering accuracy, not wound performance. There has to be a reason that the mainstream manufacturers don't make a, say 6mm, fluted projectile.

I would be interested to see some results, but I suspect that they will only be effective at short ranges, due to the BC value of the projectiles and resultant slowing over distance. Having said that, when hunting in NZ bush and never having a long shot, I always used the heaviest projectile available - say 174 round nose in the 303 for the same reasons. Had a fluted bullet in .312 been available, I would have tried it, for sure.

I agree that the flutes will reduce BC value and thus reduce long range effectiveness. However, like you, I also hunt mostly thick woody areas (Mississippi) without much potential for very long shots, unless I'm hunting over a hay field, sweet potato field, or bean field. So, 200 yds or less would be my average shot; 400 yds is the general max hunting a food plot, maybe 700 yds over ag fields. I look for accuracy out to 300 yds. The bullet could be skinned for aerodynamics or flutes filled with "shrapnel" that explodes outward after impact then allowing the flutes to do their job. Dreaming out loud, I know. But that's how my mind works. I appreciate the sincere conversation… you made good points. That sure beats the usual know-it-all declarations which most people are on these forums for.

 

[KLB]

( this is me talking out of my as$)
I would think unless those flutes ( Honey badger like) are VERY concentric
or balanced, they might cause a lot of imbalance at higher (rifle) speeds.
Might cause tumbling. Guessing the manufactures have try it and it didn't work
or you might have seen more of them out by now.
Also they would loose velocity like crazy.
Give Hornady, Sierra a call and see what they say.
Maybe @barefooter56 might help out here, or at least point you
in the right direction.
Unless someone wants to market something new, the whole monolithic and lead
and copper core bullets work pretty well now and kill's game.

Actually I completely understand your points regarding accuracy and stability. Like those nerf footballs that have "flutes" built in, I'd think the flutes, if very concentric and slightly angled properly, could actually increase spin and improve stability and cavitation.
I did contact Hornady… they responded only to say they had no such intentions and didn't give it any real thought.
I also contacted Le-High. They were very friendly and open to the idea and in fact seemed to suggest that it could possibly become a future endeavor! I bought 2 boxes of 115 gr fluted 10mm. However, there were no current plans to load this in 6 CM.
Thanks Ranger188.

 

[KLB]

( this is me talking out of my as$)
I would think unless those flutes ( Honey badger like) are VERY concentric
or balanced, they might cause a lot of imbalance at higher (rifle) speeds.
Might cause tumbling. Guessing the manufactures have try it and it didn't work
or you might have seen more of them out by now.
Also they would loose velocity like crazy.
Give Hornady, Sierra a call and see what they say.
Maybe @barefooter56 might help out here, or at least point you
in the right direction.
Unless someone wants to market something new, the whole monolithic and lead
and copper core bullets work pretty well now and kill's game.

BTW, just so you know, several manufacturers already have fluted rifle cartridges (like .350 Legend, .460 Rowland, and bigger)-- suggesting that reasonable accuracy is possible. Granted, those are loaded in large caliber, mostly large or dangerous game rounds-- suggesting that the stopping power is formidable. Of course, that also suggests that they have trouble stabilizing them well enough for smaller caliber, potential long ranger rounds!

 

[barefooter56]

( this is me talking out of my as$)
I would think unless those flutes ( Honey badger like) are VERY concentric
or balanced, they might cause a lot of imbalance at higher (rifle) speeds.
Might cause tumbling. Guessing the manufactures have try it and it didn't work
or you might have seen more of them out by now.
Also they would loose velocity like crazy.
Give Hornady, Sierra a call and see what they say.
Maybe @barefooter56 might help out here, or at least point you
in the right direction.
Unless someone wants to market something new, the whole monolithic and lead
and copper core bullets work pretty well now and kill's game.

No idea on this for rifle bullets. I have seen this type of bullet for self-defense for use in pistol bullets. But that is a totally different game. The key with ANY hunting bullet is correct bullet placement. If that is done the animal will die when its brain runs out of oxygen.

 

[okie]

Philip, I respect the tact and humilty used in your response.
I had to sit on my fingers...

 

[boltfluter]

As of now I have only reloaded shot shells. I'd like to get into reloading rifle cartridges.

My goal is to load 6 creedmoor with non-expanding fluted bullets, roughly 103 grains. I don't believe any manufacturer is doing that yet… so I may never find fluted .243 projectiles. But I believe hard nondeforming (penetrating) bullets could take small but fast (over 3000 fps) calibers currently excelling in long range target shooting plus varmint and pronghorn hunting and elevate them into very versatile hunting loads on most species smaller than elk. Lehigh has 10mm and other handgun loads in XD. Underwood has XD and XP in rifle cartridges. And there are Honey Badger handgun loads. But fluted rifle offerings are very slim and usually in large dangerous game ammo for the penetration… but it's speed that would really make the flutes deliver a massive wound cavity! Plus, smaller calibers tend to lack penetration and blood trails... so a hard penetrating bullet with flutes in 6 Creed makes sense to me. Mushrooming would prevent the flutes from distributing the energy outward.

I don't know reloading. Maybe some of you real reloaders can give pros or cons of this idea, or know where to find fluted, non-deforming .243 bullets.

Seems like you should be looking at something like a Nosler Partition bullet, based on your description of what you want. Excellent expansion up front and basically a solid in the back for total penetration and always an exit hole. Fluted rifle bullets most likely don't exist because they would have a terrible BC. Today's thinking is all about the flattest trajectory possible no matter what. Really not a bad thing. Since you are new to reloading rifle cartridges the Partition may just suit your needs to a T.
Paul

 

[expiper]

turn a boat tail bullet around backwards,,,,Roger

 

[KLB]

No idea on this for rifle bullets. I have seen this type of bullet for self-defense for use in pistol bullets. But that is a totally different game. The key with ANY hunting bullet is correct bullet placement. If that is done the animal will die when its brain runs out of oxygen.

Everyone knows that correct shot placement is the most important thing! We also know that handgun defense and rifle ammo are different beasts. Again, not helpful. Imagine someone saying that to whoever first dreamed up hollow points and expanding bullets (used in both handguns and rifles for defense and hunting). Those truths are no reason to stop improving the performance of bullets to deliver quicker, more ethical kills. I'm so tired of hearing the same old talking points by people with nothing helpful to add to the conversation. BTW, my shot placement is very good. I qualified as expert every range qual in the Marines. I hate bragging comments but people will assume you just can't shoot if you look to improve the tools.

 

[KLB]

Seems like you should be looking at something like a Nosler Partition bullet, based on your description of what you want. Excellent expansion up front and basically a solid in the back for total penetration and always an exit hole. Fluted rifle bullets most likely don't exist because they would have a terrible BC. Today's thinking is all about the flattest trajectory possible no matter what. Really not a bad thing. Since you are new to reloading rifle cartridges the Partition may just suit your needs to a T.
Paul

That's the same concept of the Hornady ELD-X… high BC with quick expansion even at long range, thus it expands at even slower speeds. I shoot the ELD-X and have yet to get an exit wound after only 3 deer shot at.
***However, I think these quick expanders tend to shatter too quickly in FAST SMALL caliber bullets like the 6mm I mentioned… thus less shock and penetration. I get that a hardened core or base may penetrate well, but probably without the MWC. The "Controlled Chaos" may be what I'm looking for. Thanks anyway, Boltfluter.

 

[KLB]

I'm considering accuracy, not wound performance. There has to be a reason that the mainstream manufacturers don't make a, say 6mm, fluted projectile.

I would be interested to see some results, but I suspect that they will only be effective at short ranges, due to the BC value of the projectiles and resultant slowing over distance. Having said that, when hunting in NZ bush and never having a long shot, I always used the heaviest projectile available - say 174 round nose in the 303 for the same reasons. Had a fluted bullet in .312 been available, I would have tried it, for sure.

Upon further research, there are fluted bullets in .243. (I have not found them in 6CM, but that means fluted bullet are potentially available for 6mm reloaders) I may try the "Controlled Chaos". I think these use fillers in the flutes (making it aerodynamic) that
break away upon impact with fluid. Just letting you know since you said you would be interested to see results. Thanks again.