Let's revisit Tuners please

[JamesnTN]

im considering having one installed on my LG for shooting IBS 600 yard this season.

Now I know nothing about them other than I think they change the harmonics of the barrel. When setting one up where does one start on the settings? Also how do you know which way to adjust during a match if say conditions change and you're falling out of tune? Is it possible to find your best load and fine tune it in with a tuner and the node be high enough that one wouldn't need to make any adjustments?

Next I have no clue whom all builds tuners so I'm asking for those whom has had experience using them and have tested many different brands and styles what you prefer and why? My ideal for one is light but very effective with hopefully a broad node for an accuracy range and simple to use and adjust.

Thanks all in advance.

 

[JimPag]

im considering having one installed on my LG for shooting IBS 600 yard this season.

Now I know nothing about them other than I think they change the harmonics of the barrel. When setting one up where does one start on the settings? Also how do you know which way to adjust during a match if say conditions change and you're falling out of tune? Is it possible to find your best load and fine tune it in with a tuner and the node be high enough that one wouldn't need to make any adjustments?

Next I have no clue whom all builds tuners so I'm asking for those whom has had experience using them and have tested many different brands and styles what you prefer and why? My ideal for one is light but very effective with hopefully a broad node for an accuracy range and simple to use and adjust.

Thanks all in advance.

Jim. Talk to Mike Ezell in KY. He is an authority on tuners. Just give him a call at 270-792-1436. Very nice guy to deal with. His tuners are user friendly and easy to tune.

 

[LRPV]

I'm a nobody so it doesn't matter, but here's my thoughts and what I do.

I use a tuner brake from Harrel's. I'll put on a new barrel with the tuner set at 0. I do my load development like everyone else does to the best of my ability. When I have it as good as I can get, I set up a multiple bullseye target at 200 yards and shoot two shots. Move the tuner ring one number and shoot two more. Rinse and repeat until things look like I want them. The shots will go vertical, horizontal, change point of impact etc. I look to take out whatever vertical and both shots make one hole. Then I might shoot a 5 shot group or I might just shoot a group at 500 to see how it does. If it's small enough, I'll run with it. I've been lucky enough to get by with this.

As for knowing which way to turn to adjust for conditions, I have no idea. I set it and forget it. Wish I knew more here.

I started with a Bostrom. They cost twice as much, seem to do the same thing and not any better. I shoot multiple barrels and wanted to keep a tuner on each barrel so economics pushed me to Harrels. Plus I like the lock rings better than the friction fit of the o ring Bostrom uses.

Lots of ways to skin a frog but this is mine.

+1 to talking to Mike. I'm gonna try to work with him on a tuner for a heavy gun.

 

[JamesnTN]

I'm a nobody so it doesn't matter, but here's my thoughts and what I do.

I use a tuner brake from Harrel's. I'll put on a new barrel with the tuner set at 0. I do my load development like everyone else does to the best of my ability. When I have it as good as I can get, I set up a multiple bullseye target at 200 yards and shoot two shots. Move the tuner ring one number and shoot two more. Rinse and repeat until things look like I want them. The shots will go vertical, horizontal, change point of impact etc. I look to take out whatever vertical and both shots make one hole. Then I might shoot a 5 shot group or I might just shoot a group at 500 to see how it does. If it's small enough, I'll run with it. I've been lucky enough to get by with this.

As for knowing which way to turn to adjust for conditions, I have no idea. I set it and forget it. Wish I knew more here.

I started with a Bostrom. They cost twice as much, seem to do the same thing and not any better. I shoot multiple barrels and wanted to keep a tuner on each barrel so economics pushed me to Harrels. Plus I like the lock rings better than the friction fit of the o ring Bostrom uses.

Lots of ways to skin a frog but this is mine.

+1 to talking to Mike. I'm gonna try to work with him on a tuner for a heavy gun.

Jason,

What does the Harrells weigh? And thanks for your input.

 

[LRPV]

I can't remember but I'll weigh one tomorrow. I'm guessing around 4oz.

 

[JamesnTN]

I can't remember but I'll weigh one tomorrow. I'm guessing around 4oz.

Thanks, on the brake part can it be turned down to match contour of barrel or is it one I have to order larger and just go with it? I know I have a few barrels already threaded 3/4-32 and only one I see he has is a 1" dia. With those threads

 

[LRPV]

The rings will cover up transition so there's no need to contour it. Only problem would be having a muzzle that is larger than the tuner rings.

 

[savagedasher]

I'm a nobody so it doesn't matter, but here's my thoughts and what I do.

I use a tuner brake from Harrel's. I'll put on a new barrel with the tuner set at 0. I do my load development like everyone else does to the best of my ability. When I have it as good as I can get, I set up a multiple bullseye target at 200 yards and shoot two shots. Move the tuner ring one number and shoot two more. Rinse and repeat until things look like I want them. The shots will go vertical, horizontal, change point of impact etc. I look to take out whatever vertical and both shots make one hole. Then I might shoot a 5 shot group or I might just shoot a group at 500 to see how it does. If it's small enough, I'll run with it. I've been lucky enough to get by with this.

As for knowing which way to turn to adjust for conditions, I have no idea. I set it and forget it. Wish I knew more here.

I started with a Bostrom. They cost twice as much, seem to do the same thing and not any better. I shoot multiple barrels and wanted to keep a tuner on each barrel so economics pushed me to Harrels. Plus I like the lock rings better than the friction fit of the o ring Bostrom uses.

Lots of ways to skin a frog but this is mine.

+1 to talking to Mike. I'm gonna try to work with him on a tuner for a heavy gun.

All tuners do the same thing. With the R A S tuners I can with confidence adjust my tune for changing conditions . The last tune I had was for a tail wind. The tune had over a bullet width of vertical. Less then a half off a mark it was one hole in a head wind. It never takes more then 12 shots to find a tune .
I tune different then most . I use seating depth to get my SD flat. Add or subtract powder charge for vertical. Then I use the tuner off the point of aim. I have found one mark can have 4 tunes. Vertical up left and right off the point of aim . Or vertical down right and left from the point of aim . Ever one shoot s in a different wind. Larry

 

[dmoran]

James -

Similar to what I wrote in the other thread earlier today;
My experience with tuners is, they can increase accuracy when orchestrated with tested and proven settings.
I believe a tuner can improve the accuracy of a poorer tuned load, and at times exceptionally.
I believe they can widen a good tuned load, which gives that load more potential, hence accuracy.
But I also believe they can hurt over-all accuracy when there not set to an optimal position, is a con to them.
That I've seen play out more so with "tuner/brake" designs then by just a "tuner".

For me, I have not been impressed with "tuner/brakes" like I have been with conventional tuner designs.
Seen them deplete accuracy abruptly on bad settings, and narrower tunes on the best settings in comparison.

Have had and seen the best results from Mike Ezell's centerfire PDT tuner, myself.
The worse settings with his design have not hindered accuracy much at all, and the best settings have wider tunes.

Hope to do more testing with other designs this coming summer, that I will report on if I do....
Donovan

 

[6BRinNZ]

What is it that everyone is looking for when evaluating groups and tuner settings. Does the requirement change per discipline?

 

[savagedasher]

What is it that everyone is looking for when evaluating groups and tuner settings. Does the requirement change per discipline?

I look at the groups difference from the point of aim. I have found 4 different tunes off the point of aim. in one tune. All tuners does the same thing. Most don't adjust fine enough to find it. .005 movement on tuning ring can be too much. Larry

 

[dmoran]

What is it that everyone is looking for when evaluating groups and tuner settings. Does the requirement change per discipline?

Good questions......

For group shooting at 1000 (Benchrest), I've had to get all the vertical out I can get at 1000 to shoot the smallest groups.
But when testing at both 100/1000, I have had to put vertical in at 100, to get it out at 1000, and vise versa.
Enough so that I am worsting my groups at 100, as to a difference in discipline (100-BR verses 1000-BR).
To do it at both distances, I have had to move the tuner in opposite directions.

Have no input to a change in discipline for score, like say F-Class 1000 to BR 1000.
But makes me wonder if it wouldn't as well......

Tuner designs can play a big part in these out comes - IME
Donovan

 

[Keith Glasscock]

What is it that everyone is looking for when evaluating groups and tuner settings. Does the requirement change per discipline?

I think so. My requirements for long range are the best positive compensation one can get. For shorter ranges, I'm looking for really small groups in close.

In other words, I have the idea that my tune needs to be range specific.

So, I do rudimentary testing at 100 yards and proof those at 600 before testing at 1k. I've identified 2 tuner nodes on an old 284 barrel. Just for kicks, I'm going to test it later this year to determine if I can see any benefit in compensation between the two at 1k. They both shoot outstanding at 100. One of the two has been my set-and-forget for the earlier life of the barrel. My hope is to learn more about how to gain a tune and which direction to turn the darn thing when things aren't going my way at a match.

FWIW, on a 32" HV taper barrel, the Cortina tuner repeats about every 10 marks. My Ezell tuner repeats much closer together - about every other mark. I think that can be attributed to the much larger mass of the
Ezell tuner.

I know which one I like better, or more accurately, which of the two barrels I like better.

 

[savagedasher]

I think so. My requirements for long range are the best positive compensation one can get. For shorter ranges, I'm looking for really small groups in close.

In other words, I have the idea that my tune needs to be range specific.

So, I do rudimentary testing at 100 yards and proof those at 600 before testing at 1k. I've identified 2 tuner nodes on an old 284 barrel. Just for kicks, I'm going to test it later this year to determine if I can see any benefit in compensation between the two at 1k. They both shoot outstanding at 100. One of the two has been my set-and-forget for the earlier life of the barrel. My hope is to learn more about how to gain a tune and which direction to turn the darn thing when things aren't going my way at a match.

FWIW, on a 32" HV taper barrel, the Cortina tuner repeats about every 10 marks. My Ezell tuner repeats much closer together - about every other mark. I think that can be attributed to the much larger mass of the
Ezell tuner.

I know which one I like better, or more accurately, which of the two barrels I like better.

E S cant be over 5 or you will never get the vertical out at 1000 . Long range you must put the bullet asleep as close as possible. Not any different then Archery. Larry

 

[dmoran]

E S cant be over 5 or you will never get the vertical out at 1000 . Long range you must put the bullet asleep as close as possible. Not any different then Archery. Larry

Larry -
Aren't you afraid by putting them asleep close, that it will dream off in flier land at 1000..... lol
I want mine wide awake the whole trip, to encounter all the drag forces head on !.!.!
Vertical ES on the target at 1000, trumps the chrono ES data for me.
Have seen it go both ways, and not all calibers nor bullets act the same way.
Donovan

 

[savagedasher]

Larry -
Aren't you afraid by putting them asleep close, that it will dream off in flier land at 1000..... lol
I want mine wide awake the whole trip, to encounter all the drag forces head on !.!.!
Vertical ES on the target at 1000, trumps the chrono ES data for me.
Have seen it go both ways, and not all calibers nor bullets act the same way.
Donovan

Larry -
Aren't you afraid by putting them asleep close, that it will dream off in flier land at 1000..... lol
I want mine wide awake the whole trip, to encounter all the drag forces head on !.!.!
Vertical ES on the target at 1000, trumps the chrono ES data for me.
Have seen it go both ways, and not all calibers nor bullets act the same way.
Donovan

My answer is never the sooner I can get a bullet to stop vibrating or get it to go asleep the better it shoots al all yardage. Any time it is not stable is a losing in total speed.
The ES at the muzzle shouldn't change the out come at 1000 . But it will if the bullet stability isn't in the same area. That is the reason two crony's is a must. You will see the difference in speed when you put a bullet asleep sooner. The crone at the muzzle will tell you the speed and the one at longer distance tell you the bullet isn't asleep. because of velocity difference at the longer distance. I can have the ES low with out any vertical.
Every bullet not only caliber is different. Just basic common sense should tell you that. Why would some shoot a load based on ES only. You of all persons should under stand. Larry

 

[dmoran]

Larry -

Double quoting me, now ..... lol

What do you use for velocity capture at 1000?
First I've heard of you doing it, when did you start?

From 2005 until 2011, I risked it to 500yds with a second CED Infrared, and even gambled on a few occasions at 1000 (very risky).
In 2011 I setup with acoustic (a modified Steinert) and use it to 1000 with low risks (+50").
Donovan

 

[Dusty Stevens]

So if you find a bullet/case/powder combo thats still shuckin and jivin at 100 then "falls asleep" thats exactly bryan litz's holy grail. Hes been wanting to see that so get in touch with him

 

[savagedasher]

Larry -

Double quoting me, now ..... lol

What do you use for velocity capture at 1000?
First I've heard of you doing it, when did you start?

From 2005 until 2011, I risked it to 500yds with a second CED Infrared, and even gabbled on a few occasions at 1000 (very risky).
In 2011 I setup with acoustic (a modified Steinert) and use it to 1000 with low risks.
Donovan

Never have at 1000 Why go that far 300 is fine. if the one hundred and 300 line up the only thing that should change is the condition. and any wind would change the results. so really testing that far with out a tunnel means nothing.

Larry, if you're willing to go through all the effort of such a thing... wouldn't you just stick paper behind the 1000 yard crony and see what groups tighter?

Tom

Only if you let me use your's. Larry

 

[3081FTR]

Thought I would dig up this thread and post a question.

Can tuners mask a poor load selection? Or is everything a function of ES/SD, width of powder node and harmonics within those for group size/shape - thus if numbers are good, powder width is good, simply use the tuner to alter harmonics to alter group size and shape. Or have I missed something?

From what I can tell if you have a barrel tuner if you select a load that has good numbers and a relatively wide powder node - i.e. where POI is not materially affected by increasing or decreasing the powder charge then a barrel tuner can be used to bring the group size and shape into what is desired.

Pictures below - a seating depth test - where bullets are seated closer to the lands in increments of .003". Each loaded round was measured and each batch of 3 was held within tolerance of .0005 +-.

First picture is seating out of the case (gets closer to the lands) left to right top to bottom. Second picture is the two depths I selected left group is closest to the lands and right group is .003" further away. (I had some trouble getting the image to display positioned correctly so hopefully it presents correctly).

None of these groups are particularly good but they are as good as I can make the ammunition. I then rotated the tuner out two clicks and re-shot two seating depths (second picture). Those two were selected as they showed the least POI change in the original test even though the group size was about 1 moa.

The impact on group size was significant - will it shoot at distance (600 and 1000), be capable of holding .5 moa vertical all else being equal? or is the tuner simply masking a bum load?