Legality issues with Seb rest on competition

[gunnermhr]

To anyone who is interested in doing it here's a picture, it certainly isn't a big deal.

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I still think it's the best rest on the market, period

 

[mikecr]

It's about following rules. In actual sports, participants are familiar with rules and they're enforced.
Even playing field.

 

[Jefferson]

I have been a member in the NBRSA for over a decade, first i have heard about this in the IBS. Would like to hear from a official executive as it sound hooky to me, are they biased against non-americans buiding the rests,

the IBS could change it at an annual meeting if it was an issue,

with all due respect to the IBS it took them 6 years to change the canadian ranges to zero even when I kept e-mailing them every year so finally I quit supporting them with an annual membership. I know it is mostly volunteer but it looked bad on the website and I kept getting calls and had ot tell them the website was just not updated in the last few years,

once again I would like ot see a IBS executive addres this question rather than have some LOCAL YOCAL decide that he/she does not like non-USA made rests,

and before you jump up and raise your voice consider the advancement made by having a front rest that you can adjust the space the stock fits onto, works well doesn't it,

later Jefferson


edit sent a e-mail to Mr. Stover the IBS preesident just now

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Yep its a big anti foreigner conspiracy :. The rules existed before the rest.
My Farley was not legal with the protector bag, went with a taller edgewood, now I have 1/2'' clearance.

 

[gunnermhr]

A few years ago I sat down with the late President of the Williamsport Club, Frank Grappone before a match, he looked at the rest and said it was an issue because of the 1/2" rule, he said remove the stop and the level and there is no longer any issue.

Shortly after that I was talking to Rob Ritchie at another match, (non IBS) he looked at it also and saw where it could be an issue, Rob was instrumental in writing the IBS Rules, he said the rules were written with no intent of the 3 bags like the NEO uses to be illegal, and also thought the 1/2" rule was meant to have the gun 1/2" from the platform, the bag container should not have been an issue. These rules were written before SEB introduced the NEO, they weren't written to oust the NEO

You know, the bottom line is, if someone want's to complain about the rest being illegal the rules could be interpreted that way. For me, it was just as simple to put the piece of leather between the bag and the plate. Now, no matter how anyone wants to interpret the rules my rest is legal, It's 1/2" off the rest and any part of the rest that contains the bag. The level and the front stop are connected to the rails that hold the bag in place, I don't see it as a part of the bag container but some guys read it like that.

 

[jeff walker]

This issue was discussed at length either last year or the year before on BRC I believe. The way I remember it is that ( as already stated here ) the only issue was the holder for the fore end stop. By the rules there needs to be 1/2" clearance between anything other than the bag and the stock. The purpose of this rule was to make sure the sand bags had sand in them and not just riding on cloth covered metal. I personally don't think the hold down should be included in that, but the way the rule is written it is included. An agenda item is long overdue on this one. I figured someone would have written one up last time this was going on.

This is not new either. In 2002 I had to alter my rest to be legal for the same reason.

Jeff Walker
IBS Executive Secretary

 

[JamesnTN]

Jeff,

Why is it that the IBS can't have some sort of a meeting to make an amendment to this 1/2" we all know the intent and the purpose and some forend stop or level mount will not in any functional way give a shooter an advantage over any other. I know this has been hashed over on BR central and of course now here. I know Sebs intent with the design we all do and in know way is it fudging on the rules. Those 2 items are merely there for the intended purpose they are meant for.

Since we all understand the intent what would be sad is someone shoot a world record or win a match or a combo of both and they deem his rest illegal for this sole purpose. That's pretty much left up to a match director that runs the matches at each range. I'd say in 99.9% of the case the rest is fine as is in competition! but sadly all it takes is that one perfect day where everything comes together on paper and it falls apart due to what? A bubble level and a forend stop?

 

[dkhunt14]

Our rules were stated as One piece bag for the front. That was intended to do away with the 18 inch wide and underslung guns. the 1/2 inch rule to any part of the rest and the amount of sand was always in place . Also minimum width of 1 1/2. At one time the IBS had a piece bag rule like Rob Ritchie said. They adopted their rules from us. I don't know when they did away with it or if it just got overlooked.

 

[jeff walker]

Jeff,

Why is it that the IBS can't have some sort of a meeting to make an amendment to this 1/2" we all know the intent and the purpose and some forend stop or level mount will not in any functional way give a shooter an advantage over any other. I know this has been hashed over on BR central and of course now here. I know Sebs intent with the design we all do and in know way is it fudging on the rules. Those 2 items are merely there for the intended purpose they are meant for.

Since we all understand the intent what would be sad is someone shoot a world record or win a match or a combo of both and they deem his rest illegal for this sole purpose. That's pretty much left up to a match director that runs the matches at each range. I'd say in 99.9% of the case the rest is fine as is in competition! but sadly all it takes is that one perfect day where everything comes together on paper and it falls apart due to what? A bubble level and a forend stop?

Because the EBoard cannot do that, unless it's a safety issue. There is a system in place to handle these sorts of issues with the rules...agenda items.

I see your point, but, nothing was done last time this came up except that those who had the rests in question altered them to comply. I also agree that a bubble level and a forend stop being less that 1/2 from the stock won't help the shooter, won't hurt the shooter either. But unless the rule is changed that's the way it is. The rule can easily be changed, with an agenda item and 25 signatures.

 

[jeff walker]

Our rules were stated as One piece bag for the front. That was intended to do away with the 18 inch wide and underslung guns. the 1/2 inch rule to any part of the rest and the amount of sand was always in place . Also minimum width of 1 1/2. At one time the IBS had a piece bag rule like Rob Ritchie said. They adopted their rules from us. I don't know when they did away with it or if it just got overlooked.

I'm just going off of memory from the last time this came up. I'll have to check the rulebook to see if it says one piece bag.

 

[jeff walker]

OK I read the rules. And that made me remember more stuff from last time this rest in question was brought up.

I see no reason that multiple bags cannot be used, but it looks like they all would have to be a minimum of 1.5 inches wide and minimum of 4 inches long. Therefore if the the bags on the SEB front rest are three seperate bags and they are less than these dimensions, they are technically illegal. But, if it was one bag with three seperate chambers, it would be legal. So if the three bags were sewn together to make them one bag it would be legal. In my opinion anyway, I wouldn't presume to have the authority to make that decision alone.

 

[JamesnTN]

James, Mike, Jefferson, and who ever.....

The rules have been like they are for many many years. All other rest Mfgs and participants have complied to those rules, and have been many years.
If SEB's rest comply there good to go. If not, they will need altered to comply.
We don't need to write new rules.... just that any new rests need to comply as well, just as they have been for years.

I really think a simple question asked by the OP (James) got blown out of proportion once again, and SEB's rests are getting scrutinized to an old issue, that has been fixed.

My input to James.... the SEB rests is one of the preferred rests being used. If there is any issue, it is a simple fix, just like it is with ANY other BRAND being used today.

Wow....
Donovan

I don't have the rest in front of me as it's in transit and will arrive Friday. So bottom line here is the Neo legal or not as it's shipped from Seb? That's all I need to know either it is or it's not.

 

[ReedG]

The quote from the rulebook above, Page 28, is from the "Long Range Competition Rules". In response to the original question, I can only find this in the IBS rulebook on Page 3:

4) The front bag must be such that the rifle can be easily removed in the vertical
direction without any front sand bag adjustment. The bag must also be designed
to maintain a 100% contact with the bottom of the fore-end when in its shooting
position. The cover and filling of the front bag shall meet the requirements
described in paragraph (3) concerning the rear bags. The front bag shall also be a
minimum of one half inch thick in the vertical direction within the width of the
fore-end.

It doesn't seem the 1/2" rule, or its interpretation, are applicable in so-called short-range IBS BR as the only reference to 1/2" is that the bag be a minimum of 1/2" thick.

 

[LRPV]

To add to Donovan's above post, don't forget the 1.5" wide requirement as well. I am surprised that there wasn't some discussion on front rests/bags this winter at the IBS meeting especially since it seemed to be an issue of confusion at the 600 Nationals. I'm a new shooter and I'm not trying to start waves. I'm sure there are very good reasons for the rules that are in place but to a new guy, some just don't make since and the wording is a little confusing. It's almost seems like over the years a modification to a rule was made and it was worded vaguely enough as to not step on any toes.

 

[seb]

JamesnTN, you say that you don't have the rest in front of you.
Ok - as the rest maker, I'd give/explain you a few things....:

1. We make both 3pc (adjustable width) bags & 1pc (fix) bag. The rest comes with one of them, as per customer's request.

2. Both bags exceed the minimum size measurement, ETC, stated in the rules.
Rule is rule whether it's good, or "strange".

NEO front bags are approx. 1.75" wide, 3/4" to 7/8 " thick when filled in moderate hardness/not too hard, and tapered on the sides so you can lift your stock/rifle easily upward.
So - installed, our front bags protude MORE than half inch thick - counts from the the top of the leveler/stopper's joint.
Of course you won't shoot off of an empty bag.
Of course as the bag is pliable it's more depend on how you treat the bag & tension.
Ask anyones to lift the rifle upward.
Ask anyones to check for the full contact bottom and 1/2" on the sides, too.
Even if your stock has two or ten inches "flat" on the sides (vertically), I can tell you that you have no more than 1/2" contact on the sides due to the bag taper.
That's easy.
Be smart. Don't trust rumor, trust fact.
Some people were just (always) referring to my old/prototype 3pc bags (not the new/current one), for I don't know/do not understand why? Perhaps they just do not know my new/current bags. Perhaps just because they don't like non-US made/stuff. Or for other reasons.
Some people "think" they are the police-men or rule maker. I just don't have time for this type of people.

3. We have made more than one thousand rests, distributed worldwide (to over 25 countries), and we are behind 350++ rests at this moment (=as always). The demand says it all.
And by the way, at least 10 percent of them shoot in national/international level. And many matches are won by great shooters around the world using their NEO rests.
Yes you don't want to bring/use a rest that does not comply the rules.

4. If you don't like the rest, for whatever reason(s), you can easily sell it in just a few minutes. Probably with some margin, too.
To be honest to you, I prefer my rest is owned by someone that trusts it / likes it.
How can you shoot good/to your fullest potential if you have doubts in your equipment?

seb.

 

[johara1]

Seb, The rest is legal except for the fore end stop and the level that are attached to the hold down bar. This reduces the clearance around the fore end to less than a 1/4 in those areas. This was brought to your attention two years ago. the one piece bag rule i must say should be addressed and clarified, i thought that part was legal. From what Jeff said i was wrong. Farleys basket made them illegal till you put something under the bag to raise it up. The top i made was illegal till i milled the front bar to drop the fore end stop .120 lower.
It's not Sebs fault or anybody's fault but you have to play by the rules, it is your obligation to abide by the rules. Just like the weight rule in long range it says 17 lb……. not 17 lb. 1 oz. some are giving it and it shouldn't be that is how this whole mess with the rest started it was let go ………. jim O'Hara

 

[Waskawood]

How do the rules address the fore end stop? Is it not considered part of the rest? According to the discussion, it appears any rest with a stop would be illegal if the stock is within 1/2 inch of it. Defeating the purpose of the stop. I am more confused by the moment.

 

[jeff walker]

How do the rules address the fore end stop? Is it not considered part of the rest? According to the discussion, it appears any rest with a stop would be illegal if the stock is within 1/2 inch of it. Defeating the purpose of the stop. I am more confused by the moment.

Never thought about that before, but I don't see a way to tie that into the bag rule. But if someone was to do an agenda item, it could be put in there for clarification.

 

[johara1]

Jeff, The rule says 1/2" clearance from the retainer the screw going through it and it does hold the bag as does the level in the rear both reduce the clearance under the rule. Look at post #20 and it is the same in the rear with the level. This was an old issue with the IBS two years ago and it is still the same thing , a gray area but i was told it is illegal then with the 1/2" rule and a 3 piece bag, but i thought they moved on that. ……. jim

 

[Waskawood]

How do the rules address the fore end stop? Is it not considered part of the rest? According to the discussion, it appears any rest with a stop would be illegal if the stock is within 1/2 inch of it. Defeating the purpose of the stop. I am more confused by the moment.

Never thought about that before, but I don't see a way to tie that into the bag rule. But if someone was to do an agenda item, it could be put in there for clarification.

My point is, the rifle is actually touching part of the rest. No 1/2 inch spacing here, but it's allowed. If you are going to go by the letter of the law, go by the letter of the law. No fore end stops should be allowed then. My thoughts are that rules are written so that there is an even playing field. If the NEO doesn't give an unfair advantage what's the issue?