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Legal ramifications of using reloaded ammunition

Must be nice to have this sort of conversation about "self defence".

In Canada we're shit out of luck. USA's gun laws are the only thing that differentiates and makes the United States more of a "FREE" country, compared to the rest of the world. Wish some of those American anti-gun liberals realized that fact.
 
I have never in my life read such a bunch of BS in my life. If you are getting into a gun fight you better be trying to figure out how to WIN THE GUN FIGHT FIRST!!!! If my life is in jeopardy and I have a nuculear tipped bazooka that is what I an reaching for. If I have to deal with a bunch of lawyers later so be it, but my narrow ass is getting the best device at my disposal to save my life and my families life. I will not base my decision on an internet rumor now or ever. Some times there is a winner in a gun fight sometimes there are 2 lossers, my sole thoughts at this time is being a winner. By you posting this no reloads knowledge you are telling a lawyer you were trying to avoid a wrongful death suite by using factory ammo.
 
If my life is in jeopardy and I have a nuculear tipped bazooka that is what I an reaching for. If I have to deal with a bunch of lawyers later so be it,....

Love the internet tough-talk.... :rolleyes:

ebb said:
If you are getting into a gun fight you better be trying to figure out how to WIN THE GUN FIGHT FIRST!!!!

You can't win the fight with a quality factory round? o_O

ebb said:
By you posting this no reloads knowledge you are telling a lawyer you were trying to avoid a wrongful death suite by using factory ammo.

That's quite the stretch there. By using a commonly available item, for it's intended purpose, you are hardly advertising any intent to a lawyer. However, in reverse..... by using handloads, a good lawyer may be able to convince a jury of some things that he couldn't if you had used factory stuff.

I'll say it one.... more.... time....

I can "WIN" that hypothetical gun battle with factory ammo, just as easily as handloads, so why set yourself up for potential headaches later when you are gaining nothing up front while exposing yourself to huge downsides needlessly afterwards?

If handloads offered some advantage, I might be convinced to use them. But they offer me NOTHING over quality factory rounds, so why even take the chance?
 
Factory rounds, Let me see Winchester 230 gr. Black Talon comes to mind. That was a quality factory round that was outlawed years ago. Because the Doctors couldn't put you back together again. Dead men tell no tails.(as long as there are no cameras)

Joe Salt
 
Let me ask it another way.

What do you (anybody) hope to GAIN by using handloaded self defense ammo, that you can't get in over-the-counter factory loads?

Better accuracy, lower cost per round, more training. When the chips are down the ability to shoot well just might save your life.
 
Cold Bore I admire your confidence. I don't share it, seal team 6 losses members all the time. I am not sure I can win a gunfight with the bazooka! I carry CCI gold dots in my carry gun, they are way hotter than what I load and have bullets that are just as lethal. I am not going to waste one moments time worrying about what any others think about my choices after a gun fight. The only think I am worrying about is did this situation need deadly force and did I take the steps to make sure I win. There is no internet tough guy talk here at all, my worries are " will I recognize this as a situation that needs deadly force in time to make a difference". The worst case would be to use deadly force when it wasn't needed.
 
I think there is WAAAYY too many CSI-type shows on TV..
A lot of people think court on TV is same as RL,, well I have listened to the daily unwinding ramblings of my wife, who has sat next to many judges over the past 28years..
There has NEVER been a case where the type of ammo used was brought up, Jury's don't understand hollowpoints, or fmj, or RIP,, or any chit like that.. and in order to present it as evidence, they would have to have collaborative material or experts to testify that the bullet you put in your chamber was especially made for the victim..
You can wring your hands and fret about what MIGHT happen,, you should spend more time worrying about how to AVOID the situation, and make sure you did everything possible to retreat.. (Assuming no castle doctrine applies)
 
Get your own "expert' to tell your side of the performance of handloaded ammo. MOST shooters load to factory specs and don't even know it. Unless you're loading atomic ray skin eating bacteria loads or something exotic, you should have nothing to worry about. My first police department loaded their own duty ammo in the basement of the PD. BUT this is about choices. And if you want to be double safe buy the ammo from the store....and get sued anyway. BTW...this is where I am going to disagree with your thinking a bit. YOUR attorney should be able to take this apart at redirect. "devastating effects" of handloaded ammo "designed solely to inflict maximum carnage" and "unnecessary suffering". Who made that up? Yeah you will hear all about that and the usual why not shoot the gun out of his hand stuff. Just survive it and hope your attorney is worth what you pay for. I've already been here, so just make sure you keep load data etc... But it's still up to you on what you carry. Personally, I make better quality rounds than factories do, and IF I ever have to shoot someone again, I want it to stop them from doing what it was they were doing.
 
"Your Honor, I use both factory ammunition and reloads in my handguns. I'm not sure which my gun was loaded with at the time of the attack." jd
 
A couple of thoughts; when I taught self defense with a handgun the last time I actually got statistics to cover the cost, the average "good shoot" of an attacker was going to cost the individual defending themselves $12,000 in legal expenses - that was in 1992! The exception was a few states in the south and the west that held self defense in the respect it deserved. But that's only the police and prosecutor's part of the action. As has been rightfully mentioned, anyone can sue the person defending themselves in civil court, and that's a huge can of worms and $$$.

To those who have been advised by local law enforcement in classes or as a result of direct questions and been advised that it doesn't matter if you use handloads for self defense, be thankful that you live in an enlightened jurisdiction. The problem generally isn't law enforcement, it's the next step, the District Attorney's office and it's prosecutors - in many places in the northeast and in states like Maryland, Illinoise, New York and California, there are individual prosecutors who will go to any length to discredit and then charge an individual involved in a legitimate self defense shooting, including playing the handload card. Fortunately, good defense attorneys have learned how to deal with that version of attack on their clients and it doesn't usually make it into court, even when the prosecutor does get the case into court (remember that $12,000 in 1992? That's where it goes). And the latest approach of such unscrupulous, gun owner hating DAs? Carrying a reload for your carry gun! First they'll try to paint you as Rambo for carrying, say, a high cap semi auto with a double stack magazine, then they try to reinforce the Rambo image by nailing you for carrying a loaded spare magazine. Good defense attorneys know how to counter this, too (start by asking a testifying office what the capacity of his duty sidearm is and how many reloads he carries), but the point is, the damage may already be done where the jury is concerned, and their opinion is what matters, whether based on common sense or not. Think being painted as Rambo for carrying a reload for your carry gun is a myth? Judges have been known to NOT allow expert testimony on this subject, so you better know what the local police carry, and that certain firearms malfunctions can only be handled by a reload. An example of both painting a legitimate shooter as Rambo for carrying an extra magazine and not allowing expert testimony at trial is "Commonwealth v Pepicelli. In short, arguing about whether handloads are permissible in self defense is hit or miss, depending on where you are likely to get hauled into court in the aftermath of a legitimate self defense shooting, but it is one more tool that could be used by an unscrupulous prosecutor that is easily avoided, and avoiding it in a criminal case will help make the ambulance chaser's work in a civil suit more difficult.

Be careful out there and watch your flanks.

Mike
 
Let me ask it another way.

What do you (anybody) hope to GAIN by using handloaded self defense ammo, that you can't get in over-the-counter factory loads?

Simple. My reloads are more gooder than anything you can buy.

This thread (and this ancient topic) are perfect examples of why you never ask for legal advice (and that's exactly what the OP is asking for) on the internet.
 
Simple. My reloads are more gooder than anything you can buy.

This thread (and this ancient topic) are perfect examples of why you never ask for legal advice (and that's exactly what the OP is asking for) on the internet.


The jails are full of "Internet lawyers'" clients.
 
All of my self defence guns shoot factory ammo, but that is simply because I don't reload for pistols. But....my mags are stacked FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP...etc...!! Why, because , like this topic, there doesn't seem to be one right answer!! I wonder what the prosecutor would call me??
 
All of my self defence guns shoot factory ammo, but that is simply because I don't reload for pistols. But....my mags are stacked FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP...etc...!! Why, because , like this topic, there doesn't seem to be one right answer!! I wonder what the prosecutor would call me??
Rambot.
 
Lots of hypothetical "stuff" in this thread.

I worked 20 years behind the badge. And not in some red state, but rather on the cutting edge of liberal land, in a mini Seattle.

I was sued three times, so I speak from some experience there, and shootings, well, that too.

Anybody can spout "how it should be". No one will disagree. But a wise person considers how it is likely to be, and mitigates liability. I am certain that any lawyer worth the hire that either prosecutes you or represents the dearly departed will certainly pursue ANY door you leave open , regardless of "how it should be". So a prudent person doesn't leave the door open. They think ahead and mitigate risks that are obvious. And if it ain't obvious to you that liberal verbal $^!) like "high capacity clips" and "assault rifles" doesn't draw sharks like a bloody tuna, then you deserve to pay an extra few thousand dollars to your defense attorney and to the "expert" to defend your .29 cent decision to save money by using a reload (read "specially prepared killer cartridge, made in the dark of your basement for the express purpose of savaging my client") to defend yourself.

Don't be a dummy.
 
Since I used to compete in skeet would I be more liable if I used a 12 ga instead of some wimpy pistol?
Or used #4 buckshot instead of #8s. Clearly that would be excessively lethal when mildly lethal is the standard.
 
From what I've seen of the self defense ammo that's sold I doubt you'd need reloads. I shot a Patriot .45/.410 using the .410 PDX1 shells with 12 BBs and 3 "discs" at 10 yds. YIKES! Your perp would wind up looking like swiss cheese.

 

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