LarryDScott
Site $$ Sponsor
I have never used a Lee Collet die, but in defense of Hornady case lube, I used it for yrs w/no issues. Your mileage may have varied !!! LDS
Lee Die is Collapsing Case Necks -- Advice?
- Thread starter gbr7519
- Start date
sqrlgtr
Gold $$ Contributor
I've had good luck with the LCD's in no turn factory rifles but use Redding bushing dies in all my custom chambers.I wouldn't hesitate to use them on custom if thats all was available though. I even made one for 221 furball by turning down an extended shell holder to go up in the collet to make correct length. This will probably get some boo's but I set my press up so that it cams over with the LCD makes for very consistant sizing, it does'nt take as much pull on handle as most think. Only time I have crushed shoulders is when collet was stuck up in die because someone had run ram up without any brass present in shell holder.
LEE recommends no more than 25#’s pressure on the handle, max. I have collet sized using the LEE hand press. Cleaning the die, light lube wiped off, before starting insures I can do 50 cases without repeating. As mentioned, feel the case in each time and avoid the crush. When the mandrel enters the case neck easily, then encounters resistance, you have developed the dreaded “donut”. I then remove these before proceeding.
When You start out right, You get a feel for how it is supposed to work. If something changes, or doesn’t feel right, disassemble the die, clean, and go back at it.
edit: and yes, as sprlgtr said, never run the ram up without a case in the holder. It will jam the collet up, and could ruin it.
When You start out right, You get a feel for how it is supposed to work. If something changes, or doesn’t feel right, disassemble the die, clean, and go back at it.
edit: and yes, as sprlgtr said, never run the ram up without a case in the holder. It will jam the collet up, and could ruin it.
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it's a Lee die!...okay I use them... they sometimes require a little reworking. The collet due is being over collasped ...as you tried to get more beck tension. Polishing down the rod is the answer pushing too hard down on the collet collapses the case because your still pushing it up but its clamped tightly around the neck and manderl. Loose the collet polish down the rod .001" then deburr, polish, and lube the internal contact areas of the collets...now it works great as designed.
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
"LEE recommends no more than 25#’s pressure on the handle, max."
I guess the force applied to the Collet depends on handle to ram lever ratio.
Here is a crude measurement of what it takes at the ram to size a .30-06 neck.
45+ lbf does it. 50 lbf is plenty. Maybe 55-60 lbf at the ram for this old Winchester case would be a good max.
The force on the press handle is a fraction of that. Someone with one of those presses that measures ram force would give a better estimate.
I'll rig up something later to get better data.
I guess the force applied to the Collet depends on handle to ram lever ratio.
Here is a crude measurement of what it takes at the ram to size a .30-06 neck.
45+ lbf does it. 50 lbf is plenty. Maybe 55-60 lbf at the ram for this old Winchester case would be a good max.
The force on the press handle is a fraction of that. Someone with one of those presses that measures ram force would give a better estimate.
I'll rig up something later to get better data.
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As reloaders we all strive for consistency and using the LCD is no different. 20 years back John Valentine solved that and wrote this for us:
Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .
If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful polishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticeable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.
There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you don't need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.
I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.
Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .
If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful polishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticeable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.
There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you don't need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.
I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.
Yes, I‘m sure LEE is talking about pressure at the end of the handle. And like I said, I have successfully collet sized using the Lee Hand Press. Once the inside case wall compresses on the mandrel, more pressure only digs the collet into the outside case wall, causing the ridges. And I rotate the case twice more after the initial sizing.
The dies I am using on My 6BR and 284Win, I had LEE custom make for Me. When this is done, the workmanship exceeds the normal production quality. I don’t think LEE is doing this currently, because of covid disruptions.
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
If you think about it (after looking at how it is made) gouging up a couple steel parts sizing a brass neck indicates way too much force.
I have standard size and undersized mandrels. When I polish one down I sand the section below the sizing zone even more.
I have standard size and undersized mandrels. When I polish one down I sand the section below the sizing zone even more.
All the ones I have provide 3 thousands neck tension. Thats enough for Me.
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
That a decent offer. +1
This is a pretty good lube for steel on steel.
This is a pretty good lube for steel on steel.
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
One last post before this thread goes into the past 
Per J. Valentine's 20 year old instructions,
"then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that."
I have a different approach.
Per J. Valentine's 20 year old instructions,
"then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that."
I have a different approach.
JSH
Gold $$ Contributor
I have one I use for 22 Hornet and that is it.
I had some others and gave them away, with a warning of what a pita they could be.
It’s what I tend to see from a fair amount of Lee products, some fairly good ideas that aren’t full finished or fully thought out. The collet is a decent idea, the mandrels should be offered in some various diameters AND polished (finished) to make them do all they are capable of. I have yet to purchase a set of Lee dies that I don’t have to spend a fair bit of time on polishing and deburring. Chaps me pretty bad to put a nice polished, clean piece of brass in a die and pull it out and it looks like you found it in the parking lot.
I had some others and gave them away, with a warning of what a pita they could be.
It’s what I tend to see from a fair amount of Lee products, some fairly good ideas that aren’t full finished or fully thought out. The collet is a decent idea, the mandrels should be offered in some various diameters AND polished (finished) to make them do all they are capable of. I have yet to purchase a set of Lee dies that I don’t have to spend a fair bit of time on polishing and deburring. Chaps me pretty bad to put a nice polished, clean piece of brass in a die and pull it out and it looks like you found it in the parking lot.
NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
BINGO!! Case too soft, necks fold up real easy.
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
I would rather polish some inexpensive dies than send off fired cases and pay out the nose for custom honed dies.
The inside of the Redding Body Die is pretty smooth, and the undersize mandrel for the LCD is cheap.
I'm building a birthday order with Midway and the mandrels (spares) are $3.10. The body die for some of my calibers and the LCD are $20 or less. Crush a neck in a LCD, annealed or not and YOU did something wrong.
(I think JSH was referring to other Lee dies that needed work)
I've crushed a few necks, but it was MY FAULT, not the Die.
If someone wants to give away a pre-2019 .223 LCD, I'm game
The inside of the Redding Body Die is pretty smooth, and the undersize mandrel for the LCD is cheap.
I'm building a birthday order with Midway and the mandrels (spares) are $3.10. The body die for some of my calibers and the LCD are $20 or less. Crush a neck in a LCD, annealed or not and YOU did something wrong.
(I think JSH was referring to other Lee dies that needed work)
I've crushed a few necks, but it was MY FAULT, not the Die.
If someone wants to give away a pre-2019 .223 LCD, I'm game
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Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Its not thought of by the folks that come up with ideas to improve dies
JSH
Gold $$ Contributor
On their FL dies, I honestly have tried to like them over the past 40 some years of hand loading.
I buy tooling and equipment to finish a project, not to have another project.
They worked so well on the 22 Hornet, I tried to give them a chance on other cartridges.
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