Lee collet die set up?

[Tozguy]

I beg to differ with Boyd and BigEd. The ridges (gather marks) on the outside of the neck are the result of normal sizing and are not due to swaging the brass from excessive pressure. The ridges may be more or less visible depending on how much the necks have been sized. A neck closed up by .006'' will have more pronounced ridges than a neck sized by .003''. If you do not have any ridges chances are the neck has not been resized enough (if at all).
The top of the collet die will pop off long before there is enough pressure to cause brass to flow.
April 1st was yesterday.

 

[bigedp51]

I beg to differ with Boyd and BigEd. The ridges (gather marks) on the outside of the neck are the result of normal sizing and are not due to swaging the brass from excessive pressure. The ridges may be more or less visible depending on how much the necks have been sized. A neck closed up by .006'' will have more pronounced ridges than a neck sized by .003''. If you do not have any ridges chances are the neck has not been resized enough (if at all).
The top of the collet die will pop off long before there is enough pressure to cause brass to flow.
April 1st was yesterday.

If you watch the TV show Law and Order the Medical Examiner is always telling the Detectives the victim was strangled and then shows them the ligature marks on the victims neck. "Gather marks" are caused by "strangling" the case necks and leaving ligature marks.

The gather marks are caused by the rough edges of the collet slits grabbing the brass and pinching it inward causing the brass to move and "flow" outward into the slit. If you look at the inside of cases like this you will see a corresponding mark where the brass is being pulled away from the mandrel.

If you lightly sand and polish the collet slit openings your case necks won't look like a gorilla choked your brass to death.

Below is a British .303 case that has been neck sized many times with a Lee Collet die that was cleaned up and polished. Please note the neck of the case doesn't look like a gorilla choked the case neck to death.

In closing it was Eisenstein who once said:

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."

Don't make me get my torque wrench out again to prove a point. :

 

[Tozguy]

BigEd, if your knowledge of collet dies is inspired from watching TV then that explains a lot. You can put your torque wrench away anytime.

 

[bigedp51]

BigEd, if your knowledge of collet dies is inspired from watching TV then that explains a lot. You can put your torque wrench away anytime.

This is a reloading forum and not a sewing class.

And I don't want folds or puckers in my case necks.

gath·ered
To draw into small folds or puckers, as by pulling a thread through cloth.

Noun 1 gathered skirt - a skirt whose fabric is drawn together around the waist.

skirt - a garment hanging from the waist; worn mainly by girls and women

Some people fix their dies and don't "gather" in large groups admitting their mistakes. :

And that's because some of us don't let the problem happen in the first place.

Sorry Tozguy but your slip is showing. ;D

Below is a brand new collet with very rough slit opening that grabs your brass and strangles it.

Below is a polished collet with the burrs and sharp edges removed from the collet slits, now it won't grab your brass and "gather" folds or puckers. (or hem and pleat)

 

[1holeaddict]

I knew we would all get some good reading out of this thread. It is becoming very informal. I love the concept of these dies . I just wanted to see what the experienced LCD users are doing.

 

[Hondo64d]

I adjust mine to lightly cam over. I find my results that way to be more consistent than relying on my highly calibrated arm to determine how much pressure I am applying. Adjust the die by running your press ram all the way to the top. Screw the collet die in until it touches the shell holder, and then a tiny bit (maybe 1/32 turn) more. Try sizing a case. If it holds the bullet with sufficient tension, then good to go. If not, screw the die in a tiny bit more and try again. If at any time you are really putting a lot of pressure on the handle to get it to cam over, then you need to polish the mandrel to a smaller diameter and readjust the die. I have never had anything less than great results using this method.

John

 

[jelrod1]

Since I have one of these dies on the way and will be trying it out for the first time this weekend, this thread has been very informative. Thanks for all of the tips on setup.

 

[bigedp51]

Internet secret, Google is your best friend for finding information.

Google "Lee Collet Die setup" and "Polishing Lee Collet Dies" and set up your dies the way it best suits you...............and if you have a torque wrench laying around and feel froggy then go to town.

The photo below came from Googling "Lee Collet dies" and going to images and scanning the photos.

I spent half my life working on aircraft and the other half as a Quality Control Inspector.

No one has the same arm and grip strength, no ones reloading bench is the same level, and no one has their chair adjusted to the same height. If you adjust the Lee dies by the instructions you can have many variables in force applied to the press handle.

Old joke the mechanics kept telling the inspectors when asked "what did you torque that bolt to"?

Answer:
I tightened the bolt until the threads started to smoke and then gave the bolt two more full turns.

The photo below was labeled "Mutilation by Lee Die"

Then there is plan "B" which reduces neck run out also without using a Lee Collet die because the expander die mandrel is self centering and floating.

Expander Mandrels and Neck Tension
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/expander-mandrels-and-neck-tension/

 

[BoydAllen]

It seem to me that the part of the non toggling crowd that focuses on precise pressure on the press handle is missing an important point. As long as you apply the minimum pressure needed to bring the inside of the case neck into firm contact with the mandrel, variations in pressure that exceed this minimum have no effect on the neck, as long as the leverage of the press is limited by the die being in an adjustment range that does not allow development of ridges in the neck, that correspond to the cuts that divide the segments of the collet. What we are dealing with is a minimum press handle pressure. Variations in the amount by which it is exceeded do not correspond to variations in neck diameter or tension. I know that this observation will upset those that would weigh each spoonful of their morning cereal, but to paraphrase a vice president, this may be an upsetting truth, that nevertheless is (the definition of which brings me to the president under which he served, and I will let it go at that).

 

[bigedp51]

BoydAllen

If the Collet die is adjusted by the instructions then the more pressure applied to the press handle the more the case neck is choked leaving deeper ligature marks. This is sometimes called "gorilla tight" and causes confusion with sewing terminology crowd. :

If the cam over method is used with minimum pressure to contact the mandrel you have the added benefit of a hard stop and a gorilla could pull and hang on the press handle and not leave a mark on the case neck.

Which brings me back to what is minimum pressure to YOU could be a lot more force if this person ate his Wheaties for breakfast and drank a Mountain Dew Kickstart energy drink to wash down his testosterone pills.

Do you remember Primitive Pete from shop classes?

And at the other end of the spectrum you have light fingers Louie.

No one is going to pull the handle with the same force and cam over makes us all equal arm strength.

 

[BoydAllen]

I have ribbed necks with way too much toggle. I will have to do an experiment to determine if any reasonable amount of non toggle method (the method in the Lee instructons) handle pressure can produce ridges. I use the lightest of toggles, so I do not have much experience with any other method. Being a recovering heavy toggler, I still have difficulty with the emotional need to bring the press handle to the conclusion of its stroke, but my intellect, and the success of a friend who uses the factory approved method tell me that I am incorrect as to the necessity of this conformity of handle stroke with all other press operations.

 

[gotcha]

Kudos to bigedp51, I remember introducing you to the LCD on another forum. If I recall, you questioned my sanity. : Your supporting pics are excellent & exactly what I do w/ my LCD's. To bad Lee doesn't actually finish their LCD dies before shipment. Some are better than others, ALL could benefit from careful polishing & de-burring. Based on their price I'm more than willing to take the extra steps. Another benefit is they sure take the work out of eliminating do-nuts. The mandrel pushes them out & the collet can't squeeze the necks any tighter than the mandrel diameter. Lee should post this entire thread on their web site. 8)

 

[bigedp51]

Kudos to bigedp51, I remember introducing you to the LCD on another forum. If I recall, you questioned my sanity. :

Actually midwayusa.com introduced me to the Lee Collet die and I deny your claim and doubt your sanity.

Forgive me if the above seems harsh BUT no one introduced me to the Lee Collet die, I bought one after reading about them in a Enfield rifle forum and I never saw your screen name in a Lee Enfield collectors forum.

I do wish RCBS, Forster or Redding made a "quality" collet die that was more polished and refined than the Lee die.

I have to go now, I'm worried you'll tell me your Darth Vader and my father next. :

 

[Waskawood]

After reading a couple threads here on the Lee Collet die so ordered two. One for my .204 Ruger and for my .223. I must say I am sorrily disappointed. Most posts stated that I would have to polish them up a little but the fit and finish is so rough I cannot get the collets out of the die to polish them. I have not resorted to a hammer yet to drive them out as I am wondering if they should be returned. I was really excited to give them a try as the concept sounds great.

 

[bigedp51]

My .223 Lee Collet die was the same way, use a socket that fits the collet diameter and is smaller than the body inner diameter and push the collet out.

The collet is wider at the top near the slit cuts and is binding/rubbing on the body of the die. You will need to bend them slightly inward to allow the collet to move up and down and not bind.

 

[memilanuk]

So... if I may interject a question for the other 'experienced' collet die users... I've been using them off and on for years, usually getting very good results but invariably having one or two 'aw crap' episodes that turn me off for a period of time. Usually its the mandrel/collet grabbing the case necks; I started polishing mine (not quite to the extent shown earlier) which seemed to alleviate most of that crap. Now I seem to have encountered another 'problem'...

Using Lapua .308 Win brass, once-fired in a match chamber, all with a known-good load, etc. First firing had been following neck turning, etc. Cases had been ran thru the collet die to restore a bit more neck tension after expanding/turning... shot great. Now on 2nd loading... and keep running into cases that for some inexplicable reason have *no* neck tension when sized with the exact same setup. I mean as in I can 'drop' the bullet down the neck. Yes, I know that expanding, neck-turning, sizing, firing, and then sizing again *does* work the neck a bit... but I've never needed to anneal necks after only *one* firing, so I'm not sure thats it. FWIW, same cases ran thru a conventional sizing die (Forster Precision Bump die w/ expander and a properly selected bushing) size normally.

Any guesses as to why the erratic behavior w/ the collet die?

 

[broncman]

If you have a tight neck chamber, the case may not open much in diameter. To the point the brass can not worked enough during the collet operation for it to retain the new size. It just springs back.

Anneal one and see what happens!
Or....buy a new pin and turn it down about a thousandth or so to get the range needed.

 

[memilanuk]

.342 neck, same as I've used for years. Forgot to mention that I do have several 'smaller' mandrels from Lee... according to my micrometer they aren't the advertised sizes at all, although they are smaller than the original. Even with the undersized mandrel I still got the erratic sizing.

Sorry, not going to anneal *one* (or even a few) case out of a matched set of hundreds just to see what happens - not with this rifle anyways. Maybe if I see the same behavior on other brass for another barrel that isn't as important... but this is the first time I've ever seen it do this, so I don't know if thats going to happen anytime soon.

 

[bigedp51]

Forgot to mention that I do have several 'smaller' mandrels from Lee... according to my micrometer they aren't the advertised sizes at all, although they are smaller than the original. Even with the undersized mandrel I still got the erratic sizing.

It would seem to me that if you went to a smaller mandrel and the neck did not decrease in size then the collet isn't compressing the necks.

Could something be binding the collet inside the body of the die and preventing the collet from squeezing inward?

 

[memilanuk]

Why would that only happen on some cases, on only the second loading?