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Learning to shoot with wind flags

foxguy said:
Lee,

If you don't mind? Why the Sail Tails vs the Surveyor's tape?

I haven't shot over Sail Tails.

Thanks
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I’m with you. Maybe it’s just me but always felt the sails were too heavy in light breezes.
From the very beginning have always used double vane Wicks with double vanes off each vane…..they have served well for years. When needed, will supplement with a couple of Ray Hill “ bobbers”.
 
I run two different flag spreads, depending on the weather. Ray Hill/Wicks dual vane when dry conditions and Ezell when it's wet conditions. Both are equipped with sail tails, and I carry different weight sail tails, but normally only use the 1.5 tails. I also have .75 tails but rarely use them. If using sail tails, there are things you'll learn about low wind conditions that still make them very viable. With surveyor's tape, they max out way too quickly at a very low velocity. I also have two Ray Hill up/downers and those have surveyor's tape tails. Up/downers work best without the extra weight of a sail tail. I also run a Begg's style wind probe. Sometimes the probe is more important, especially when wind condition is staying consistent from one direction.

Sail tails on Wicks/Hill dual vanes will slow down flag response to wind change direction some, but make up for it in a better visual and more accurate display of velocity. This slower direction change, which is minor, is not an issue if you know that you don't look at your flags only. REPETE, don't only look at your flags! You must look at the flags up wind of other competitors to accurately judge what's coming. Harper has posted on this thread that all flags lie. That is totally incorrect. He also posted they tell what happened, not what is happening, and that is absolutely correct in most situations! The flags didn't lie, they absolutely told the truth after they got acclimated to the new condition, but that condition may have already passed.....maybe. Even the fastest flags will not correct position as fast as it happens. If the wind is in a constant direction for the card, sadly that rarely happens, you'll be fine just doing velocity changes in your hold according to your flags sail tails and or wind probe. If it switches, especially frequently, you better look down the line to see what's happening before you shoot. I don't care how fast your flags switch, small Keeney's with a very light tail being the fastest I know of, you're going to get caught off on a switch if you aren't looking at the rest of the field's flags. You have to look at the big picture when reading wind, and your flags may screw you if that's all you're looking at. I have won several matches by not even looking at my flags. I shot off the flags of the shooter next me after I figured out they were the condition to hold for.

Wind reading is a journey. Several have posted it's time spent on the bench. That is the best way to learn, although having advise from experienced shooters does lessen the learning curve some.

Scott
 
Attended our first ARA match this year--There were so many wind flags set up it was like the state fair--really was a giant distraction--The guy on the bench next to me said this:
If it is quiet--don't shoot--If everyone is firing--you fire--simple as that Let everyone else read it and soon you will get the hang of it.

One thing I learned this week from a Wise marksman in Florida
I was talking to him and saying we ( as rookies) were using surveyors tape on our home practice range--and that it could be showing lots of wind yet target indicated nope not so much
He said weight the ends of the tape--so grabbed some split shot from my tackle box and started experimenting---several split shot tuned them so when they show wind there is enough to matter

Rookies at work here so YMMV
 
dusterdave173 said:
Attended our first ARA match this year--There were so many wind flags set up it was like the state fair--really was a giant distraction--The guy on the bench next to me said this:
If it is quiet--don't shoot--If everyone is firing--you fire--simple as that Let everyone else read it and soon you will get the hang of it.

One thing I learned this week from a Wise marksman in Florida
I was talking to him and saying we ( as rookies) were using surveyors tape on our home practice range--and that it could be showing lots of wind yet target indicated nope not so much
He said weight the ends of the tape--so grabbed some split shot from my tackle box and started experimenting---several split shot tuned them so when they show wind there is enough to matter

Rookies at work here so YMMV
Click to expand...
Some days and at some ranges the air isn’t as heavy as at other times or ranges
the wind velocity may be up but not as much push on the target
also the opposite of this is true some times the air is heavier and there is more push on the target than the flags show
 
I have a full set of Hood (dual vane) wind flags, with all of the options for all of them, regular vanes, big vanes, daisy wheels and counterbalances for use without the daisies. The flags came with heavy red cloth ribbons that are 2" wide. They have a line of hot glue across their tops to hold them flat, and in the center of that stiffener the ring end of a stainless ball bearing snap swivel is embedded. The snap goes through a hole in the center of the cross bar that connects the backs of the vanes.

In the lightest of conditions the ribbons stay vertical, but they start to spin, with this increasing with wind speed until they start to come up at an angle. Because of their being heavier than surveyors' tape they are useful at higher wind speeds than the tape. an because of the way that they start to spin, if the flags are balanced right, and their pivots vertical, the flags will turn pretty early on.

For conditions that I am pretty sure will stay light most of the time I have also used tape instead of the ribbons, so I have a pretty good idea of the differences. Of the two I prefer the ribbons.

1736689408824.jpeg
 
The last rimfire 100 yard match 8-10mph hour gusts shifts around 2-4 o'clock. The match director had a tarp setup for extra benches with shade, I shot from the last bench in the shade. No flags, just listened to the tarp. It cost me 2 poor shots and first place(40 score able shots, scoped match). I did notice it took a few more sighters to warm up the barrel, the shade? I usually bench in the sun.
 
Tim Singleton said:
Some days and at some ranges the air isn’t as heavy as at other times or ranges
the wind velocity may be up but not as much push on the target
also the opposite of this is true some times the air is heavier and there is more push on the target than the flags show
Click to expand...
Yes Sir, we see the same thing quite often on our range and I've noticed it elsewhere too. This is where sighters come in handy, to get a feel for the condition. Sometimes I'm slow to pick up on them though!! LOL!!

I'm thinking temperature and humidity play a big part of what you described??
 
doclu60 said:
I run two different flag spreads, depending on the weather. Ray Hill/Wicks dual vane when dry conditions and Ezell when it's wet conditions. Both are equipped with sail tails, and I carry different weight sail tails, but normally only use the 1.5 tails. I also have .75 tails but rarely use them. If using sail tails, there are things you'll learn about low wind conditions that still make them very viable. With surveyor's tape, they max out way too quickly at a very low velocity. I also have two Ray Hill up/downers and those have surveyor's tape tails. Up/downers work best without the extra weight of a sail tail. I also run a Begg's style wind probe. Sometimes the probe is more important, especially when wind condition is staying consistent from one direction.

Sail tails on Wicks/Hill dual vanes will slow down flag response to wind change direction some, but make up for it in a better visual and more accurate display of velocity. This slower direction change, which is minor, is not an issue if you know that you don't look at your flags only. REPETE, don't only look at your flags! You must look at the flags up wind of other competitors to accurately judge what's coming. Harper has posted on this thread that all flags lie. That is totally incorrect. He also posted they tell what happened, not what is happening, and that is absolutely correct in most situations! The flags didn't lie, they absolutely told the truth after they got acclimated to the new condition, but that condition may have already passed.....maybe. Even the fastest flags will not correct position as fast as it happens. If the wind is in a constant direction for the card, sadly that rarely happens, you'll be fine just doing velocity changes in your hold according to your flags sail tails and or wind probe. If it switches, especially frequently, you better look down the line to see what's happening before you shoot. I don't care how fast your flags switch, small Keeney's with a very light tail being the fastest I know of, you're going to get caught off on a switch if you aren't looking at the rest of the field's flags. You have to look at the big picture when reading wind, and your flags may screw you if that's all you're looking at. I have won several matches by not even looking at my flags. I shot off the flags of the shooter next me after I figured out they were the condition to hold for.

Wind reading is a journey. Several have posted it's time spent on the bench. That is the best way to learn, although having advise from experienced shooters does lessen the learning curve some.

Scott
Click to expand...
Mr Scott, what you've described about tails is spot on with my little bit of experience. I shot over 1.5 tails last season. Near the end of season I switched to .75 tails and will shoot over them for awhile to see what they have to offer.

You are absolutely correct about the advice of experienced shooters helping to lessen the learning curve for us newer shooters. I want to thank you and all the more experienced for taking the time to post helpful information.

Thanks!!!
Jerry
 
cavedweller60 said:
In my opinion, you shouldn't use flags to decide where to aim, you should use them to decide when to shoot.

I watch for the flags to show some consistency and then shoot sighters to see where the rounds strike. I do this several times to establish some sort of pattern. Then, for record shots, I wait for the flags to indicate a similar condition to my test shots on the sighters and fire then.

In my opinion, chasing the flags...trying to guess where the shots will go based on various flag positions.... may cause lower scores than just ignoring them and shooting for center each shot.
Click to expand...
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding 100% we have a winner. Maybe not in every case. However, I was told this by a guy whose licensplate is 250 10X. So for competitive rifle rimfire shooting at 50 yds this works.
 
Damn, I love this thread.
It's rare that you get to pick the brains of as many experienced wind shooters. At my local range the 22 benchrest craze is so relatively new that people come to me for advice! That's a classic case of the blind leading the blind especially since next year will be my first using flags. This business with the flags just has just set the hook in me even further.
 
1911nut said:
I’m not smart enough to see that, I was wondering why a 3 o’clock wind causes the shot to hit low.

Not like this?

View attachment 1622374
Click to expand...
Ha! Ha! That's a good questions and I did notice what you mentioned. It also says pellet in the center, maybe that has something to do with it.
Like @VLNBYR mentioned, at our local range I do see a lot of the 1 and 7 shots shown on these two charts.

I can't read the center of this one, but I have been accused of being cock-eyed!! LOL!!!

I see these wind charts as a general guide.
 
1911nut said:
I understand that. I’ve learned to trust my sighters.

I found it strange that the Iranian air rifle target’s full value wind at 3 and 9 are backwards from the several other targets I’ve seen representing the same thing.

View attachment 1622547
View attachment 1622549
And even an air gun pellet target
View attachment 1622550
maybe the CIA hacked the Iranians air gun benchrest program….

The Iranians shoot 100 yd score targets with air rifles.

IRBR Airrifle Benchrest 100Y November 2023

Results of the IRBR 100Y Benchrest competition November 2023 Varamin Sniper Club Top 100Y Benchrest IRBR Benchrest Association November November 2023 Varamin Sniper Club Kamran Zakari with FX M3 air rifle and score: 477.5, 8X Amir Hossein Shakibamehr with Prophet air rifle and score...
www.airgunnation.com www.airgunnation.com
Click to expand...
I hear ya.
Just saying lots of days a 9 o'clock will print a little high
 
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