Learning to shoot with wind flags

[jsof]

I am early in the process of learning to shoot better in the wind and to use wind flags, and besides getting out there and just gaining experience by shooting, would appreciate it if some of you guys who have been doing it for a while now could provide some tips and other sources of information that have helped you out in the past such as forum threads, you tube videos, links to good articles, magazines and books etc..

So far, I am finding that the number of questions coming up exceeds the insights I have gained. Right now I am looking out the window watching a wind flag that I set up in my back yard in a swirling, rapidly shifting inconsistent 18mph wind, and as near as I can see the only thing to do would see what condition seems to dominate for the longest period of time, find the hold point for that and try to get off some shots whenever the flag gets to that point and pauses there for a bit which by the way isn’t long. Also, I understand that in these conditions the next flag down might be indicating something totally different going on, so then what? And, is it possible to set the flags up where you can actually see one or more at the bottom or your sight picture through your scope or where do you set them visually? Can all this be done using a good bipod or front rest with a separate rear bag or is it possible only with a one piece rest?

Another big question, I think, is other than just looking at the streamer or a spinner if you have one, how does one judge the actual velocity of the wind? Can you guys do that accurately just by how the streamer is acting? Do you actually use an instrument to get an idea of how hard it’s blowing beforehand or is it just previous experience?

Like I said, lots of questions and I imagine this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[BoydAllen]

IMO one of the things that retards people's progress with flags is trying to shoot a small group every time they shoot the rifle. I include myself in this group. What I think needs to happen is take more individual shots that are investigations of where a given flag condition will put the bullet hole. The problem with this is that our visual memories are not designed for the task, but there is a solution. Most of us have some means of taking a video. I have an old still camera that can shoot high def video. It has a thirty to one lens, and a built in mic. The plan is to set up looking at the best picture of all the flags, using manual focus to optimize that, and shoot continuous video of a test session that would be shot on a target with rows of aim points, starting with a good still air zero. Each target would have a number and just before I shot that target I would say that number for future reference. The plan would be to intentionally shoot each shot in a different condition while holding center. IMO this sounds more complicated than it actually would be once it had been done a couple of times. Reviewing the video we can freeze the frame the instant that we hear the shot, and with the target in hand, correlate the image of the flags with the position of the bullet hole. The results of a single well done test can be used as a training aid, and even shared if that is what one wanted to do.

 

[WyleWD]

If you are allowed to use a lazer pointer at your range it can help you align the top of the flags to the bottom of your target board if that's the way you want to try. Personally I prefer them to be slightly off to the side, but I'm in the minority.

The best advice I can give you is to ALWAYS take a few flags and set them up when you're shooting and learn to shoot using them. And buy GOOD quality flags. A rimfire for practicing with flags to get you started helps a lot.

And yes, you're right, it's the tip of the iceberg. About everyday and definitely every range is a different experience. JME. WD

 

[cavedweller60]

In my opinion, you shouldn't use flags to decide where to aim, you should use them to decide when to shoot.

I watch for the flags to show some consistency and then shoot sighters to see where the rounds strike. I do this several times to establish some sort of pattern. Then, for record shots, I wait for the flags to indicate a similar condition to my test shots on the sighters and fire then.

In my opinion, chasing the flags...trying to guess where the shots will go based on various flag positions.... may cause lower scores than just ignoring them and shooting for center each shot.

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

In my opinion, you shouldn't use flags to decide where to aim, you should use them to decide when to shoot.

I watch for the flags to show some consistency and then shoot sighters to see where the rounds strike. I do this several times to establish some sort of pattern. Then, for record shots, I wait for the flags to indicate a similar condition to my test shots on the sighters and fire then.

In my opinion, chasing the flags...trying to guess where the shots will go based on various flag positions.... may cause lower scores than just ignoring them and shooting for center each shot.

I agree with the above.

You should be aware of different types of streamers. There are some very light weight ones similar to surveyors tape that will get close to horizontal with a steady 2 mph wind and it’s difficult to tell the difference in 2 mph vs 5-6 mph when using these really light tails. There are some heavier tails which most folks I know call sail tails. These get up to about a 45 degree angle in a 4-5 mph wind, and they barely move if you’re down around 1-2 mph.

in addition to wind flags, there are some other devices called wind probes. Some of these have a scale and an adjustable counterweight, so they can be calibrated if you have an anemometer, such as a Kestrel for example. You can use ballistic calculators to help you learn how much you need to hold left or right of center in various amounts of crosswind. I like to make a table for 2, 4, 6, 8 mph. I have heard a lot of people say that wind probes are great for showing you when not to shoot (too much wind, better to wait for a better condition).

As someone else said, just my experience, YMMV.

 

[Webster]

In my opinion, you shouldn't use flags to decide where to aim, you should use them to decide when to shoot.

I watch for the flags to show some consistency and then shoot sighters to see where the rounds strike. I do this several times to establish some sort of pattern. Then, for record shots, I wait for the flags to indicate a similar condition to my test shots on the sighters and fire then.

In my opinion, chasing the flags...trying to guess where the shots will go based on various flag positions.... may cause lower scores than just ignoring them and shooting for center each shot.

Not an expert, are you saying none of the best shooters hold off on a shot? I would think that sometimes you don't have a choice. You ideal condition may never happen again in the time alloted for your target time. Many times I hear guys say the condition changed so they shoot at the sight bull to see where i goes.

Once at the Super Shoot I stood behind Tony Boyer and watched the flags and when he shot. Not sure what I got out of it but Tony had to be the best at wind reading. Buy his book.

 

[TRSR8]

In my opinion, you shouldn't use flags to decide where to aim, you should use them to decide when to shoot.

I watch for the flags to show some consistency and then shoot sighters to see where the rounds strike. I do this several times to establish some sort of pattern. Then, for record shots, I wait for the flags to indicate a similar condition to my test shots on the sighters and fire then.

In my opinion, chasing the flags...trying to guess where the shots will go based on various flag positions.... may cause lower scores than just ignoring them and shooting for center each shot.

For RFBR that is bad information and I’d guess you’ve never shot a sanctioned match.
The reality is, when the clock is ticking for 25 shots, rarely do you have the luxury of 100% POI holds……you better learn how/when to hold off. Sometimes, not much, but it is an absolute required skill.
Maybe…you want to re read your first sentence?

 

[cavedweller60]

Not an expert, are you saying none of the best shooters hold off on a shot? I would think that sometimes you don't have a choice. You ideal condition may never happen again in the time alloted for your target time. Many times I hear guys say the condition changed so they shoot at the sight bull to see where i goes.

Once at the Super Shoot I stood behind Tony Boyer and watched the flags and when he shot. Not sure what I got out of it but Tony had to be the best at wind reading. Buy his book.

That's not what I said at all. I said, chasing the flags / wind, is VERY difficult to do consistently and well. I think if you ask 25 top shooters in RFBR specifically what they do, most will say they TRY
to wait for their preferred condition. To shoot a whole card while interpreting the wind for each shot is a losing proposition.
Personally, I like a little wind as long as it's consistent. I would take a steady 3-5 mph from one direction over a switchy 1-2 mph wind. If the wind is moving around a lot, I'll go through a testing sequence from several different directions and, sometimes repeat several times throughout the card just so I get at least an idea of what's happening.

 

[cavedweller60]

For RFBR that is world class bad information and I’d guess you’ve never shot a sanctioned match.
The reality is, when the clock is ticking for 25 shots, rarely do you have the luxury of 100% POI holds……you better learn how/when to hold off. Sometimes, not much, but it is an absolute required skill.

I've shot plenty of matches. I also never said I, or anyone else, should wait for POI holds. I actually said just the opposite. I hold off on almost every shot...unless the tails are hanging straight down. just take test shots on the sighters to have a decent idea as to where to hold. I look for consistency in the flags and try to take shots under certain conditions that I like.

If looking for favorable conditions is "world class bad information", what is the right way to do it?

 

[jsof]

What about wind velocity? Am I correct in thinking 6shotsor5 is saying that it is mainly knowing your tails and judging from how vertical or horizontal they are?

 

[TRSR8]

I've shot plenty of matches. I also never said I, or anyone else, should wait for POI holds. I actually said just the opposite. I hold off on almost every shot...unless the tails are hanging straight down. just take test shots on the sighters to have a decent idea as to where to hold. I look for consistency in the flags and try to take shots under certain conditions that I like.

If looking for favorable conditions is "world class bad information", what is the right way to do it?

I dare say, when you’re shooting sighters you better be doing it together with watching flags so you can go back on record, hopefully, when flags are the same.
Also, among the hardest to do well is ascertain what the prevailing and repeatable winds are…l.found by constantly watching flags.

 

[cavedweller60]

What about wind velocity? Am I correct in thinking 6shotsor5 is saying that it is mainly knowing your tails and judging from how vertical or horizontal they are?

I'll wait for TSR8 to respond to my question about the correct way to shoot over flags. Hopefully he'll share his wisdom on judging wind speed too.

I use a combination of sail tails and a wind probe but, I am giving "world class bad advice" according to him.

 

[cavedweller60]

I dare say, when you’re shooting sighters you better be doing it together with watching flags so you can go back on record, hopefully, when flags are the same.
Also, among the hardest to do well is ascertain what the prevailing and repeatable winds are…l.found by constantly watching flags.

That's exactly what I said in the post you criticized. Maybe it's only accurate when you say it.

 

[johnmyers]

Practice shooting a lot in adverse conditions and see what works best for you and listen more to your flags than what most people tell you

 

[TRSR8]

That's exactly what I said in the post you criticized. Maybe it's only accurate when you say it.

Again, perhaps re read your first sentence.
How exactly are sighters used unless together with flag position?

 

[JEFFPPC]

Never shoot without flags, wasting time and ammo if you do. I have found holding to offset the flag can be tricky but in switchy conditions sometimes necessary. But maybe biggest thing flags tell you as stated above is they tell you when and when not to shoot. Not mentioned but equally important, always shoot with a clock. Learn how long you need to run all 5 and how long to shoot that last shot. You paid for x amount of time use it, all.. When the fire command comes if your seeing what you hoped for, get shooting. You wait so your not the first guy to shoot you might have lost the only good chance on that relay.

 

[TRSR8]

IMO one of the things that retards people's progress with flags is trying to shoot a small group every time they shoot the rifle. I include myself in this group. What I think needs to happen is take more individual shots that are investigations of where a given flag condition will put the bullet hole. The problem with this is that our visual memories are not designed for the task, but there is a solution. Most of us have some means of taking a video. I have an old still camera that can shoot high def video. It has a thirty to one lens, and a built in mic. The plan is to set up looking at the best picture of all the flags, using manual focus to optimize that, and shoot continuous video of a test session that would be shot on a target with rows of aim points, starting with a good still air zero. Each target would have a number and just before I shot that target I would say that number for future reference. The plan would be to intentionally shoot each shot in a different condition while holding center. IMO this sounds more complicated than it actually would be once it had been done a couple of times. Reviewing the video we can freeze the frame the instant that we hear the shot, and with the target in hand, correlate the image of the flags with the position of the bullet hole. The results of a single well done test can be used as a training aid, and even shared if that is what one wanted to do.

Boyd, while your point is certainly correct, you have to factor, it’s one thing to shoot a five shot group in 7 minutes, usually taking 20-30 seconds, it’s a somewhat different animal shooting at 25 separate bulls in 20-30 minutes, I’m the dummy that does both.

 

[TRSR8]

Never shoot without flags, wasting time and ammo if you do. I have found holding to offset the flag can be tricky but in switchy conditions sometimes necessary. But maybe biggest thing flags tell you as stated above is they tell you when and when not to shoot. Not mentioned but equally important, always shoot with a clock. Learn how long you need to run all 5 and how long to shoot that last shot. You paid for x amount of time use it, all.. When the fire command comes if your seeing what you hoped for, get shooting. You wait so your not the first guy to shoot you might have lost the only good chance on that relay.

Jeff..,RFBR not NBRSA/IBS group.

 

[cavedweller60]

Again, perhaps re read your first sentence.
How exactly are sighters used unless together with flag position?

If you read the whole comment, you would have seen exactly what I meant. Why don't you do that and tell me what I said that was incorrect?

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

What about wind velocity? Am I correct in thinking 6shotsor5 is saying that it is mainly knowing your tails and judging from how vertical or horizontal they are?

Did you read what I said about calibrated wind probes?