Lead lapping a barrel?????
- Thread starter msinc
- Start date
What can be done to the magazine? As I have one and would like to load longer also.
Sorry for the delay, I didn't see this until just now. First you have to take it apart, there are three little tabs that have to be depressed at the same time and then the back part comes off. You fill the "flutes" in the back with black epoxy and then put it on a vertical mill and make the slot for the cartridges deeper using a 3/8 end mill. Sounds simple enough and it can be if you have or have access to a vertical mill.
The guy that came up with this idea was looking into getting a mold made to produce the new backs in the correct configuration but it must have costs more than he thought as i haven't heard anymore about it.
It's a real shame Ruger didn't make the magazine right...it is plenty long enough to allow any bullet at any length you could possibly want. Good luck.
You might want to try this factory length load...24.0 grains of IMR 4166 behind a Berger 64 grain Varmint/Target bullet. Mine puts them in the same hole.
Sorry guys...I got busy and kinda forgot about this thread...I will take some photos tonight and get them on here!!!!
I will get them posted this evening. Sorry about that.
I bought 100 lead cast bullets in all calibers. I bought the bullets before they were sized. Example unsized lead bullets for a 308 are about 310. They have grooves in the bearing surface. For checking for tight spots I only lube the barrel before driving them into the bore with an aluminum dowl. For lapping I have cast laps and used the unsized lead bullets. I fill the grooves with lapping compound and work the entire bore with a few complete passes then work the tight spots back in forth. Then make a couple complete passes. I clean the barrel and recheck. I repeat the process until I get a smooth pass up to about 4 inches of the muzzle. I want the muzzle to have about .0001" .0003" choke. Some agree with this process some don't . I use only premium quality barrels that have been pre and post lapped during the manufacturing process. The only barrels I lap are those sent to me by customers made by barrel manufactures that don't pre and post lap. I now only accept customers barrels that I pre approve and know the manufacture personally. It saves a lot of headaches' and disappointments'. I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for with pre and post lapped barrels. The same goes with multiple stress relieved barrels.
Nat Lambeth
Nat Lambeth
And then there are the details left out about lapping the barrel. I agree with Butch lambert, if the lapping plug comes out it is suggested it is time to start over and melt another slug. If the plug is not run to the end of the muzzle there is no chance of the plug making an exit.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
I promised to post some photos a while back, so here goes...this may take a couple of posts.
This is the lead ladle I made. It is just a piece of steel turned on the lathe. It is purposely made heavy to hold heat. I just throw in a few cast bullets that had flaws. This insures relatively clean fluxed lead in the barrel. We don't want to add scratches by lapping with dirty lead...
Here is the modified jag. It is turned down to allow for more lead than jag. This helps to keep the lead molten so it can fill all the lands and grooves better before it solidifies. Notice the rough appearance so the lead can remain attached to it as the bore is lapped. When finished the used lead lap has to be melted off the jag.
The barrel is clamped in a vise with the cleaning rod and jag positioned as shown. The jag is down from the muzzle about 2 -3 inches to allow for a longer lap. The longer it is the more compound it will hold and the longer the lapping surface to get more done before it is lapped down and stops working. At this point the muzzle is heated a little with the propane torch to help the lead flow better into the bore. The lead is melted in the ladle and poured into the bore. Sorry guys, I cant do that stuff and take pictures too.
This is the lead ladle I made. It is just a piece of steel turned on the lathe. It is purposely made heavy to hold heat. I just throw in a few cast bullets that had flaws. This insures relatively clean fluxed lead in the barrel. We don't want to add scratches by lapping with dirty lead...
Here is the modified jag. It is turned down to allow for more lead than jag. This helps to keep the lead molten so it can fill all the lands and grooves better before it solidifies. Notice the rough appearance so the lead can remain attached to it as the bore is lapped. When finished the used lead lap has to be melted off the jag.
The barrel is clamped in a vise with the cleaning rod and jag positioned as shown. The jag is down from the muzzle about 2 -3 inches to allow for a longer lap. The longer it is the more compound it will hold and the longer the lapping surface to get more done before it is lapped down and stops working. At this point the muzzle is heated a little with the propane torch to help the lead flow better into the bore. The lead is melted in the ladle and poured into the bore. Sorry guys, I cant do that stuff and take pictures too.
Here is the poured lap in the bore. The button of lead on top does kind of the same thing as the sprue when casting bullets, the extra weight of the molten lead helps to insure that the lead flows all the way to the bottom and fills the lands and grooves.
Once cooled off a little the lap can be easily pushed from the bore. I have never had one try to stick. The button needs to be carefully hacksawed off. I had a photo but deleted it by accident. You can see the rifling in the lead. You have to be careful at this point because the lap moves easily in the bore and you do not want to let it get out of the barrel. If that happens your chances of getting it back in are nil.
Here is the lap with the button carefully cut off the end. To do this it is best if you only allow enough to protrude out the muzzle without hitting the barrel with the saw blade and gunching it up. The lap is soft and can bend very easily. If it gets bent too much it will not want to go back into the bore. Just to clarify, this lap was not allowed to protrude as far out of the bore as shown in either of these photos.
Taking care not to bend the lap you need to use the hacksaw blade to cut some grooves in the lap. This is what will retain the lapping compound while you are actually lapping the bore. They can be random, do not need to be any certain spacing and because the lead is so soft you don't need to worry about "de-burring} of trying to pretty it up getting the little fine pieces of lead cuttings off. It can be slopped up with the compound and put to work just as it appears in this photo. Again, only allow as much lap as needed to cut the grooves and clear the muzzle when cutting the grooves. All of these grooves were not cut with this much lap protruding. Take your time and work slow and easy...it will save time in the long run. Cut a groove, advance 1/8" and cut the next one. Be careful not to allow the lap to slip out of the bore.
continued on next post...
Once cooled off a little the lap can be easily pushed from the bore. I have never had one try to stick. The button needs to be carefully hacksawed off. I had a photo but deleted it by accident. You can see the rifling in the lead. You have to be careful at this point because the lap moves easily in the bore and you do not want to let it get out of the barrel. If that happens your chances of getting it back in are nil.
Here is the lap with the button carefully cut off the end. To do this it is best if you only allow enough to protrude out the muzzle without hitting the barrel with the saw blade and gunching it up. The lap is soft and can bend very easily. If it gets bent too much it will not want to go back into the bore. Just to clarify, this lap was not allowed to protrude as far out of the bore as shown in either of these photos.
Taking care not to bend the lap you need to use the hacksaw blade to cut some grooves in the lap. This is what will retain the lapping compound while you are actually lapping the bore. They can be random, do not need to be any certain spacing and because the lead is so soft you don't need to worry about "de-burring} of trying to pretty it up getting the little fine pieces of lead cuttings off. It can be slopped up with the compound and put to work just as it appears in this photo. Again, only allow as much lap as needed to cut the grooves and clear the muzzle when cutting the grooves. All of these grooves were not cut with this much lap protruding. Take your time and work slow and easy...it will save time in the long run. Cut a groove, advance 1/8" and cut the next one. Be careful not to allow the lap to slip out of the bore.
continued on next post...
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Here is the lapping kit I use...you can simply buy valve lapping compound at any auto parts store or order it online. When I worked as an automotive machinist the generally accepted "best" compound was the Clover brand. Whatever you use, you want it to be the consistency of thick grease, the thicker and stiffer the better. This little Wheeler kit I have is just about the perfect consistency, and it is cheap enough.
Here is the lap loaded with compound and ready to be pulled into the barrel. It is stroked back and forth full length at first until you can feel any tight spots. Sometimes a barrel is on size the entire length. If this is the case then continue to stroke full length. If it has tight spots you can stop and give it short strokes in that spot and kind of "dwell" there longer than the rest of the bore. You will typically get 10-12 strokes before the lap starts to feel loose. You can try to reload it or get rid of it and pour another one and go again. At this point you will clean out the barrel and have a look with the borescope to see if you need to continue. Obviously, if there are still tight spots then you need to have another go at it. If it is good and consistent and the finish looks good then stop. You will not get all the tool marks out.
This is the hillbilly stop which is just a piece of wood c-clamped to the bench to prevent the lap from coming out of the muzzle. This is not the only way to accomplish this, you can come up with something as simpler or as complicated as possible.
Here is the lap loaded with compound and ready to be pulled into the barrel. It is stroked back and forth full length at first until you can feel any tight spots. Sometimes a barrel is on size the entire length. If this is the case then continue to stroke full length. If it has tight spots you can stop and give it short strokes in that spot and kind of "dwell" there longer than the rest of the bore. You will typically get 10-12 strokes before the lap starts to feel loose. You can try to reload it or get rid of it and pour another one and go again. At this point you will clean out the barrel and have a look with the borescope to see if you need to continue. Obviously, if there are still tight spots then you need to have another go at it. If it is good and consistent and the finish looks good then stop. You will not get all the tool marks out.
This is the hillbilly stop which is just a piece of wood c-clamped to the bench to prevent the lap from coming out of the muzzle. This is not the only way to accomplish this, you can come up with something as simpler or as complicated as possible.
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Here is the expended lead lap after it has done it's job. It now needs to be melted off the jag so another can be cast and put to work. It sounds like a really time consuming pain in the tail job to keep using and pouring laps, but it is really not that bad. You can feel the barrel getting more consistent from front to back and anticipate how well it will shoot. Either that or resolve that if it don't shoot you have done all you can to rectify the poorly made barrel, throw it in the nearest pond and go on a three day drunk to help forget all the time you just wasted...
No doubt some genius will now come along and tell us all the mistakes I have made as well as advise the correct way to do it...he is probably right, but...you cant argue with results:
Here is the hillbilly homemade barrel wrench for the Ruger American....thought you guys might like to see it.
The finished product...sorry, I really wish I could take photos through my borescope, but I cannot, maybe someday. You can see the reflection of the perfectly lapped rifling in the chamber and know that you are either gonna shoot fantastic groups or get drunk!!!
I will be happy to answer any questions posted or pm'ed. Hope you guys like this photo shoot and again, sorry for the delay. Good shooting!!!
No doubt some genius will now come along and tell us all the mistakes I have made as well as advise the correct way to do it...he is probably right, but...you cant argue with results:
Here is the hillbilly homemade barrel wrench for the Ruger American....thought you guys might like to see it.
The finished product...sorry, I really wish I could take photos through my borescope, but I cannot, maybe someday. You can see the reflection of the perfectly lapped rifling in the chamber and know that you are either gonna shoot fantastic groups or get drunk!!!
I will be happy to answer any questions posted or pm'ed. Hope you guys like this photo shoot and again, sorry for the delay. Good shooting!!!
Thank you for the nice comments sir and I am hopeful that you found this informative. I have a Smith&Wesson 629 that is I cannot get to stop leading. I intend to do a follow up and see if lead lapping will help it out any. Will post some more photos and results when I get to it. Should be soon.
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Is the idea to just keep the lap from completely leaving the muzzle? Because with a recessed crown, the lap does exit the muzzle here, if only a small fraction of an inch. So the end of the bore is being lapped, if minimally.
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butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Caution as to your abrasive. I think silicon carbide will embed and be hard to remove from your barrel.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I have used both alum oxide and silicon carbide. I think people get confused here. Silicon carbide can embed in the steel IF you were lapping with a harder lap. The grit will embed in the lead lap, not the steel. At least that is what I have found.
hoz53
Gold $$ Contributor
Hey msinc. Thanks much for the laping pics and explanations. I've wondered how that was done for awhile. My one question is doesn't the lead run down past the jag or what keeps that from happening. It didn't look like that happened in the one in your pic. Thanks. Hoz
This is a very good point of fact...The idea is both, if the lap completely leaves the muzzle then you cannot get it back in and you will have to start over. You are correct in that it does leave the muzzle some, albeit .060" or so. But since you do not want any it's better to keep lap movement to an absolute minimum at that critical muzzle. That said, if the rifling needs lapped just inside then it could benefit and so it is better to lap it some there then completely not touch it at all. If the bad spot in the rifling is so close to the muzzle that it is better to simply cut it off and recrown then that assessment has to be made. Kind of the lesser of two evils...remove a bad spot and possibly improve accuracy, or steer clear and maybe not change anything.
I guess a simple stop on the end of the board that could protrude past the recessed muzzle would be better still.
Another very good point...I was worried about this as well and the first test barrel I did I was expecting to see evidence of embedded abrasives. I slugged the bore with a copper jacketed bullet and looked for any lines that were deeper or some sort of evidence that there might be abrasive left behind to scratch it differently in some spots, but I was unable to find anything. I had to start somewhere, and so far it appears this hasn't been an issue or at least one that shows up right away.
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