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Largest E-Match on the Planet

So even George has mentioned that HEXTA targets are better. As have others. Therefore, there are two questions that beg answering are; 1) How much better? 2) Are shooters like George willing to pay the difference? Until question #1 is established Ya'll want to compare apples to oranges and value them at the same quality. The Ferrarie - VW senario. You'll always buy the VW and wonder why you can't win any races. Or in our language, a Weaver scope on a custom gun vrs a Golden Eagle or something comparable. So unless a range is begining to realize the difference, and serious about doing their due dilagence, there is no point in me arm wrestling in that arena.



Actually George, it is not "difficult" in any stretch of the imagination. In fact this last spring while in your back yard George, I offered to come to your range and mount one of your targets on the HEXTA and do a test. Just you and me. Remember. And you declined to participate. HMM

Maybe the answer to that question will be born out when the NRA presents their Certification process, eh! So I think patience will win, Turtlt and Hare deal eh

2nd question. Ya I believe when the first question is anwsered, the second one will too.

Someone raised the question of weight. And we examine that issue often. For sure every time, I at my age have to load one off and on the truck. Here is the deal. Contrairy to our miss use of the english language, the term "Sound" wave is a misnomar. It is only a sound when our ears convert the waves to our brain. Targets deal with pressure waves. Or vibration. Vibration transfers through all objects, but at different rates. Wood is one of the best material (for target frame) there is. It does NOT trasfer vibrations to the sensor very readily. DADA. Second, thinks like a plastic frame create another issue. Huge distortions in dimensions from cold to hot. That changes acoustic center, or target accuracy. Oh but for most accuracy doesn't matter. Right.

The continuing saga of the HEXTA targets reminds me of my first personal computer purchase while I was working for IBM. I got into a debate with a co-worker as I was contemplating buying a non-IBM machine. IBM PC's had the proprietary "micro-channel" architecture which was incompatible with any of the other PC's on the market. Nothing about the IBM machines allowed for sharing of components with any of the AT bus machines of the time. Additionally, the IBM machine had a slower CPU, less memory, and less storage (hard drive capacity). All this, and the IBM machine cost in excess of $3K compared to $2K or less for the non-IBM machine. Needless to say, I purchased a non-IBM machine, as I could not justify spending over $1K more for a commodity.

Fast forward to today. IBM no longer manufactures PC's, and the micro-channel architecture has fallen into the dust bin of technology. PC's have become a commodity. The debate of what was technologically superior is no longer relevant. The marketplace spoke.

Rick, is this where the e-target market is headed? With the advent of the Shotmarker and the SMT products, and how they have proliferated, e-targets are pretty close to being a commodity. From the HEXTA web site, I am not seeing significant market penetration in the US. Many clubs are not in a position, nor can they justify, paying huge premiums for the HEXTA product, no matter how superior the marketing team claims it may be. Beyond that, there isn't a lot of public transparency regarding the product. I wouldn't bank on any silver bullet from a US NRA certification process to propel HEXTA to market dominance. You know as well as I do that once a certification process is published, your competitors will conform as quickly as you will, and still market a product for significantly less than you do.

Good luck.

John Corning
 
So even
George has mentioned that HEXTA targets are better. As have others.


Therefore, there are two questions that beg answering are; 1) How much better? 2) Are shooters like George willing to pay the difference? Until question #1 is established Ya'll want to compare apples to oranges and value them at the same quality. The Ferrarie - VW senario. You'll always buy the VW and wonder why you can't win any races. Or in our language, a Weaver scope on a custom gun vrs a Golden Eagle or something comparable. So unless a range is begining to realize the difference, and serious about doing their due dilagence, there is no point in me arm wrestling in that arena.

Actually George, it is not "difficult" in any stretch of the imagination.
In fact this last spring while in your back yard George, I offered to come to your range and mount one of your targets on the HEXTA and do a test. Just you and me. Remember. And you declined to participate. HMM

Maybe the answer to that question will be born out when the NRA presents their Certification process, eh! So I think patience will win, Turtlt and Hare deal eh

2nd question. Ya I believe when the first question is anwsered, the second one will too.

Someone raised the question of weight. And we examine that issue often. For sure every time, I at my age have to load one off and on the truck. Here is the deal. Contrairy to our miss use of the english language, the term "Sound" wave is a misnomar. It is only a sound when our ears convert the waves to our brain. Targets deal with pressure waves. Or vibration. Vibration transfers through all objects, but at different rates. Wood is one of the best material (for target frame) there is. It does NOT trasfer vibrations to the sensor very readily. DADA. Second, thinks like a plastic frame create another issue. Huge distortions in dimensions from cold to hot. That changes acoustic center, or target accuracy. Oh but for most accuracy doesn't matter. Right.

Hi Rick,
I hope this finds you well.

Even tho conversing with you on this topic is like wrestling in the mud with a pig (pigs like wrestling in the mud) I will respond to yet again to your response to me.

Thank You for Another great written example of your twisting facts.
You offered to meet me at Bridgeville Delaware ( 12 hrs thru NY city for me ) not at my range.
I declined because I am too busy running a range and matches in the short season I have to work with so I don't have a window of opportunity for your "Target Duel" as you put it until at least October of this year.
Even if I did.
I have no monetary stake in ShotMarker or any other ET so why would I waste my time. Running a range and matches while I try to be a competitor as well is my hobby. Unlike you, I don't get paid for any of the time I spend at my hobby.

And like i said in the thread that you offered the duel in.
All that matters is what the NRA / CMP says when they certify this coming year.
Any test you and I did would not matter one bit

Besides all that;
Why drag the fine hard working people running matches at Bridgeville thru that.
AND
I would have to modify my target carriers just to be able to support your one of your heavy targets.

***** Repeat Direct / Simple Question for Rick *****
How much did you say each complete HEX target enclosure weighs ?


Maybe Argh / Adrian can chime in to "help Rick"
with this one and let us know about how much one HEX weighs and if he can set one up in target carrier for a practice all by himself or is it so heavy it requires two or more people just to set one up to elevate in a target carrier


Also Thank You for another documented example of you twisting my words.
Please Show me where I said HEXTA targets are better

----
What I said above was

Accuracy
*Possible slight edge to HEX in high wind conditions. (difficult to quantify)
Nowhere does this mean that I said Hexta targets are better
-------

Thank You yet again for demonstrating your salesman tactics / habits to the public and all future potential customers.

Here's to hoping the upcoming NRA / CMP E Target Certification process is open and honest for all competitors submitting systems for review. Not biased in any way from any vendor/s with deep pockets to influence the tests or the certifications.
( IE; the two system options that cost substantially more than the AFFORDABLE Silver Mountain or ShotMarker systems that many US Ranges have invested in this past year.)

If someone could help wash that mud off my back from this latest tryst in the mud with Rick that would be great... :)

Cheers all,
George Smith
Southern New Hampshire
 
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May 1st 2019 George

"But seeing as you have rejected my offer, to meet me part way for a good natured dual, :) I might make time in my tight schedule to come to your range and do a test with you. It only needs to be, you and I to do a test. I'm not asking for any witnesses. Eh"
 
May 1st 2019 George

"But seeing as you have rejected my offer, to meet me part way for a good natured dual, :) I might make time in my tight schedule to come to your range and do a test with you. It only needs to be, you and I to do a test. I'm not asking for any witnesses. Eh"

Even tho it wouldn't matter to the NRA or CMP Certification on iota, but you bring it up again..
I can accommodate that this October once my shooting / range revenue generating short season is over if that works for you. .?.??

The shooters in my area are loving the Shotmarker systems...
Attendance and revenue are increasing steadily in our 1st season with them.

Seeing how we will have official HEX reps on site for the test and I am just a simple satisfied Shotmarker End User / Customer I feel I should offer the invite to Adam if he is available to drive town to Southern New Hampshire for the meeting / test. Would make fair and equal representation from both systems there for the tests.

You and Adam should discuss / agree specifically what you have in mind for the testing and results measuring procedures and I can have the range and some test shooters prepared to be present.

I will also need to know beforehand:
How much does one of you targets weigh?
and
Height, width and depth measurements so I can modify one of my target carriers before then?

As I have repeatedly said,
From shooting at Bridgeville your systems are awesome!
Just not affordable to purchase from the (please keep it confidential) pricing you gave me or practical to install in my existing carriers for my range.

That could all change in coming years if...
Your pricing gets MUCH better and Shotmarker somehow suddenly fails where it is currently performing just fine doing all I and many other ranges need it to do.

With enough advance notice if you are serious and follow thru..
I may even be able to get Aaron Farmer from the NRA to attend our meeting / tests in the real world application neutral environment of my range.
 
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Right now the NRA is the single sanctioning body for F-Class shooting. They are the keeper of the rules, the scores and the records. Compare that with Benchrest shooting where we have the IBS, the NBRSA and the growing UBR. I am sure the NRA likes it the way it is as well as all the shooters who wish to compete under one set of rules.

So, assuming the NRA comes out and says everyone must use a particular manufacturers targets, like Hexta. Every club with SMT targets or Shotmarker are not going to replace all of their targets with the “official” brand. This could easily fracture off into three sanctioning bodies, each using their own targets, rules and records. That is not going to happen.

Whatever the NRA decides to do, it will likely include all three systems. And the words will continue.
 
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The Ferrarie - VW senario. You'll always buy the VW and wonder why you can't win any races.
Or in our language, a Weaver scope on a custom gun vrs a Golden Eagle or something comparable.

So unless a range is begining to realize the difference, and serious about doing their due dilagence, there is no point in me arm wrestling in that arena.

Levity Alert..
Ok Seeing how in this latest p!ssing contest you brought VW's into the picture to race the Ferrari.... :)

Rule #1 typically learned in good old fashioned grade / high school fistfights....

never underestimate your opponent... No matter your perception or how they appear in your vision.

 
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Right now the NRA is the single sanctioning body for F-Class shooting. They are the keeper of the rules, the scores and the records. Compare that with Benchrest shooting where we have the IBS, the NBRSA and the growing UBR. I am sure the NRA likes it the way it is as well as all the shooters who wish to compete under one set of rules.

So, assuming the NRA comes out and says everyone must use a particular manufacturers targets, like Hexta. Every club with SMT targets or Shotmarker are not going to replace all of their targets with the “official” brand. This could easily fracture off into three sanctioning bodies, each using their own targets, rules and records. That is not going to happen.

Whatever the NRA decides to do, it will likely include all three systems. And the words will continue.

Excellent Observation Andy.
I fully agree but would like to add that it applies beyond just F Class

I also love your signature line / quote
"Not everything that is important can be measured.
Not everything that can be measured is important."
A. Einstein
 
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Right now the NRA is the single sanctioning body for F-Class shooting. They are the keeper of the rules, the scores and the records. Compare that with Benchrest shooting where we have the IBS, the NBRSA and the growing UBR. I am sure the NRA likes it the way it is as well as all the shooters who wish to compete under one set of rules.

So, assuming the NRA comes out and says everyone must use a particular manufacturers targets, like Hexta. Every club with SMT targets or Shotmarker are not going to replace all of their targets with the “official” brand. This could easily fracture off into three sanctioning bodies, each using their own targets, rules and records. That is not going to happen.

Whatever the NRA decides to do, it will likely include all three systems. And the words will continue.

I hope the NRA doesn't try to dictate what brand of target to use, like the CMP did. I was hoping they would have the foresight to write specifications and criteria that the manufacturers need to meet for the product to be certified for use. If the manufacturer has a process that can prove that the units meet the NRA specifications and criteria, than the product can be used. If not, try again after "fixing" the failure points. Certification across multiple manufacturers would be best for all parties involved. The NRA has enough problems in the competitions division that it doesn't need to hitch its wagon to a specific manufacturer. That would just aggravate a lot of people.

John Corning
 
The NRA Competitions division barely has the staff to publish new rules in a timely manner. I surely dont forsee them going overboard here.... but it is the NRA.

Similar to what they've done with paper targets and the "official seal" the only thing they need to do is certify that a manufacturer makes a product that when used correctly, meets accuracy standards. If a range cant set up the frames or infrastructure (similar to pasting a creased paper target on the backer) then the accuracy standards are out the window. Thats not the target manufacturer's (paper or electronic) fault.

**Fingers crossed**
 
The NRA Competitions division barely has the staff to publish new rules in a timely manner. I surely dont forsee them going overboard here.... but it is the NRA.

Similar to what they've done with paper targets and the "official seal" the only thing they need to do is certify that a manufacturer makes a product that when used correctly, meets accuracy standards. If a range cant set up the frames or infrastructure (similar to pasting a creased paper target on the backer) then the accuracy standards are out the window. Thats not the target manufacturer's (paper or electronic) fault.

**Fingers crossed**

Excellent points and my fingers a crossed as well.

Below is the latest public information release from the NRA

https://competitions.nra.org/competition-resources/rule-books/

https://competitions.nra.org/media/7934/2019-high-power-update.pdf



High Power Book Electronic Rules

1. Page 13 after Rule 4.1 add the following:

4.1.1 Electronic Targets – Targets used in electronic target systems will faithfully conform to the paper target descriptions and dimensions contained in these Rules.

4.1.2 Electronic Target Systems – Where electronic target systems are being used, only

NRA-Licensed and Certified electronic target systems shall be used in NRA Registered

Tournaments and NRA sanctioned State, Regional and National Championship Tournaments. NRA Approved Tournaments and other events where national records are not at issue may use electronic scoring systems that are not NRA-Licensed and Certified. NRA-Licensed and Certified Electronic Target Systems shall meet all minimum requirements set forth elsewhere in these Rules.

4.1.3. NRA shall be responsible for the development, implementation and administration of a process for licensing and certification of electronic target systems in conformity with these Rules which is fair and equitable.



  1. Page 21 after RULE 8.2(a) add the following

    (1) Two or more competitors on the Firing Line - The time allowance will be 45 seconds per shot for all ranges. The time allowed starts from the command to commence fire and the target is raised in the case of the first shot by the first competitor. On subsequent shots, the time allowed starts from the time the target has been scored and recorded for the previous shot. When a competitor has been timed by a range official and has exceeded the allowed time limit, the competitor will be warned ONE time without penalty. When a competitor exceeds the allowed time after the first warning, the range official will forfeit the value of that shot for that competitor.



  2. Page 25 after Rule 9.25 add the following:

    9.25.1 Firing During 7-Second Delay Using Electronic Targets – No competitor will deliberately fire during the 7-second delay applicable to F-Class competitions when electronic targets are in use. All such unauthorized shots shall be scored as misses.



  3. Page 26 After Rule 9.27.1 add the following:

    9.27.2 Willful Use of Subsonic Ammunition on Electronic Targets – When electronic target systems are used, no competitor shall knowingly use ammunition which is subsonic at the time it impacts the target or reaches the target line. Subsonic rounds may cause damage to target systems and may result in erroneous readings.



  4. Page 32 10.7.1 Substitue (e) as follows:
(e) Failure of electronic target system Reletter current (e) to (f)


6. Page 34 & 35 remove the note and (a) under Rule 10.17. Under 10.17.1 add the following: (a). Environmental Requirements: (i) The System must be capable of successfully surviving longterm sustained storage temperatures between -40C(-40F) and +50C (+122F) without suffering damage; (ii) The System must be capable of successful operation at temperatures between 15C(+5F) and +45C(+113F). The Manufacturer of each System must divulge the frequency and power ranges of all transmissions to ensure that the System can be configured so as NOT to interfere with any existing local transmitting or receiving facilities, and must be capable of continuous successful operation in the presence of any local radar, radio, television or other common electronic transmission or emissions. The System must be capable of successful operation in conditions of light rain, moderate rain and heavy rain.

Change current paragraph (a) to (b) to read as follows: Electronic scoring targets must be capable of consistently scoring shots to within .25 inches of center-of-shot accuracy under all conditions at all distances at which the NRA Sanctioned rifle competition will be conducted.

Change current paragraph (b) to (c) to read as follows:

All target units must provide a black aiming area corresponding in size to the black areas of the respective competition targets (Section 4 Targets) and show a nonreflective, contrasting white or off-white area surrounding the black aiming area. Targets used for F-Class competition must be of the same size and dimensions as regular paper targets and must display and be calibrated for conventional scoring rings visible to the competitor through the rifle scope, including the “X” inside the XRing, or the “V” inside the “V-Ring” on International targets



Change current paragraph (c) to (d) and (d) to (e) to read as follows:

(e) Every shot hitting an electronic target must have its result, with its location and value, displayed on a monitors placed on the firing point for both the shooter and the scorer.



Change (e) and (f) to (f) and (g), respectively. Change (g) to (h) as follows:

  1. If practical, in In F-Class and other competition a seven (7) second delay in the presentation of the last shot fired on the firing line monitor shall be used. may be made available for use by the competitor as an option on the monitor. When used in F-Class competition and whenever possible and practicable, the system should be programmed so as to display the words “Waiting” during the 7- second delay and to show a digital count-down of the seconds, and where additional shots arrive at the target during the “Waiting” period, those shots should be displayed as well as the initial shot. The purpose of this procedure is to assist with the shot value determinations in cross-fire situations. Any shots fired during the mandatory 7-second delay are record shots and shall be scored as misses.



    Change (h) to (i) as follows:

  2. The scoring system must be capable of identifying and recording sighting shots and transferring sighting shots to shots of record when convertible sighters are used.



    Under Rule 10.17.2 change as follows:

    Substitute following paragraph in

    (c) When using an electronic target system, the scorer shall use normal scoring procedures using a paper score card. The paper score card is the official record for the match.



    Delete (d) & (e)

  1. Page 36 Rule 10.17.4 Change paragraph (d)(1) as follow:

    (1) If the range Officer confirms that the competitor did not fire the disputed shot(s), the shot must be deleted.



  2. Page 37 Replace Rule 10.17.6 as follows:
10.17.6 Insufficient Hits in Rapid fire
(a) Initial inquiry refer to Rule 10.17.8. If a protest is filed proceed as follows: In the case of hits all in the 9 and/or 10 ring refer to rule 14.11. (b) Refer to rule 14.12 for insufficient shots fired.

  1. If a refire is authorized refer to Rule 9.14.



    Rule 10.17.7 change as follows:

    In the event of a failure of a SINGLE target on the range:



  2. In the event a single target fails and the Electronic Scoring target cannot be repaired within five (5) minutes, the competitor will be moved to a reserve position and when he is ready to resume, and additional five (5) minutes will be added to the competition time remaining (three (3) minute preparation time and two (2) minutes for 2 sighting shots).



    Change Rule 10.17.8 as follows:

    In the event that a competitor fires a shot which does not register on the electronic scoring system, the competitor must immediately inform the nearest Range Official of the failure. A Range Official must make a written note of the time of the complaint. One or more Range Officers must go to the firing position for the purpose of determining whether the competitor has cross-fired. If no cross-fire can be identified on adjacent targets or targets elsewhere on the range, and the competitor has all of his previous shots in the black, he will be directed to fire another shot. If it registers he will be given the value of that shot to replace the missing shot and be directed to continue to fire. If it does not register he will be directed to Rule 10.17.8(a)



    (a) The competitor will be directed to fire one more aimed shot at his target. If the value and location of the shot is registered and displayed on a monitor, the unaccounted for shot will be scored as a miss. A competitor whose shot has been scored as a miss, above, may register a protest and continue to fire the required number of rounds under protest. Upon completion of fire range officials shall make appropriate technical inquiry of the system to determine whether the shot should remain as a miss or scored in some other appropriate manner.



    Delete (b) and(c)

    Renumber current (d) to (a)

  1. Page 45 Rule 14.3.1 Change the first sentence to read as follows:

    Scorers’ Duties—Scorers are required whenever targets are scored electronically, in the pits or on frames.



  2. Page 46 Rule 14.3.1 Change paragraph (e) to read as follows: (add in)

    When targets are scored electronically, the scorer will also enter the score on the permanent paper score card according to the procedures set forth in subsections (a), (f), (g) and (h) of this section; and the paper score card will become the official record of the score fired unless otherwise challenged and appropriately modified. It is the scorer’s responsibility to faithfully observe the shooter to guard against crossfires and spurious electronically recorded shots. In their capacity as match officials, scorers are responsible for enforcing the 45-second rule applicable when firing two or three competitors from the same mound (firing point).

    Reletter paragraph (e) to (f) and (f) to (g) and (g) to(h)



  3. Page 54 Rule 17.1 add the following paragraph.



    (a) National records may be set on electronic target systems only where NRALicensed and Certified targets systems are used and where the procedures set forth elsewhere in the Rules for the use of electronic targets and systems are used. *Note: This rule will be effective January 2020.
 
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Change current paragraph (a) to (b) to read as follows: Electronic scoring targets must be capable of consistently scoring shots to within .25 inches of center-of-shot accuracy under all conditions at all distances at which the NRA Sanctioned rifle competition will be conducted.

I would have hoped that the targets would be a higher degree of accuracy, rather than .25 inches. Even the worse person in the pits can visually discern a shot within .25 inches of accuracy. I also believe that most of the current manufacturers (HEXTA, Shotmarker, and SMT) claim to have a higher degree of accuracy.

John Corning
 
I would have hoped that the targets would be a higher degree of accuracy, rather than .25 inches. Even the worse person in the pits can visually discern a shot within .25 inches of accuracy. I also believe that most of the current manufacturers (HEXTA, Shotmarker, and SMT) claim to have a higher degree of accuracy.

John Corning

Even if on the worst day they are all +/- .25"

as has been said repeatedly in other threads.
Unlike with pullers and paper targets at least with E Targets of any brand all competitors get equal pit service with no pullers that are biased for or against a shooter either way.
 
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