Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
From etargets to Ferrari....LOL that's quite a segue. 
Largest E-Match on the Planet
- Thread starter Rick Ratzlaff
- Start date
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
Not really knowledgeable on this subject, but here is my two cents.
Never ask an Engineer what time it is. If you do he will spend an hour telling you how to build a watch.
As for advertised pricing, from the sounds of this, each system must be specially crafted for each installation. If the seller is simply selling parts, then pricing is simple. If the seller is selling parts plus installation which calls for specially crafted enclosures, that need to be tailored for each site, then how can he post specific prices?
I again have never seen such a system but it I would think a request for a price would be let, and the seller would work up cost and submit a bid.
If I am all wet, I apologize and please pay no attention to my statement. After reading this thread I am still confused about why everyone is up in arms,
Nick
Never ask an Engineer what time it is. If you do he will spend an hour telling you how to build a watch.
As for advertised pricing, from the sounds of this, each system must be specially crafted for each installation. If the seller is simply selling parts, then pricing is simple. If the seller is selling parts plus installation which calls for specially crafted enclosures, that need to be tailored for each site, then how can he post specific prices?
I again have never seen such a system but it I would think a request for a price would be let, and the seller would work up cost and submit a bid.
If I am all wet, I apologize and please pay no attention to my statement. After reading this thread I am still confused about why everyone is up in arms,
Nick
Doug Beach
Silver $$ Contributor
Even a business that creates custom products for each customer will know the likely range, for a job of a given size. A five lane set up will cost from x-2x, etc.
To act as though there can be no ballpark estimate, without specifics, and confidentiality, is a sign of something.
To act as though there can be no ballpark estimate, without specifics, and confidentiality, is a sign of something.
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
Well, it sounds to me as if you have a personal problem with someone. That being the case, simply do not do business with him. End of story. continually carping at someone is boring.
He runs his affairs as he pleases. That's his business plan and it must work for him or he would be doing something else to earn a living. If it does not please you then simply walk away.
Damb. Very true. And i appologise for the long winded responses and trying to make analogies that others may understand....
Now, you ask about watches i see.....
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
I rather enjoyed your dissertations. 
Doug Beach
Silver $$ Contributor
I don’t have a problem with anyone. I just won’t do business with someone who won’t answer simple questions.
If what they’re doing is getting the results they want, all is well.
There is a reason only 3 ranges in US have Hexta targets. Plus the governments supports some of the costs for these other countries. Could you imagine how much an Etarget would cost here if our government had anything to do with it. Shotmarker sold 1000 targets last year and not one person in this thread complaining. One must satisfy the US market to sell here not the other way around.
Funny you say this ,yet you still have to say something...almost like trolling.
Quote: Not really knowledgeable on this subject, but here is my two cents.
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
My comments were not directed to the subject at hand, as much as the nitpicking from the commentators on a persons business practices.
It'simple. Don't like a person or the way he does business, don't deal with him or her. I don't have a horse in this race and I am not selling anything, so how can I be accused of trolling.
If he or they come on here and try to promote their item and trash talk the competitors and not directly answer the consumers questions, then they are fair game for ridicule.
Plain and simple
Adam has that ability on his radar for those that like that feature.
In the April Shotmarker update article towards the end Adam wrote
"Later, ShotMarker will take to the cloud, offering a web portal for clubs to upload scores, and for competitors to view results interactively, shot by shot.
Also, I plan to add the ability to import or design custom target faces, improved pair-firing functionality, plot-o-matic, and more...
My vision has always been to bring target rifle shooting into the 21st century. Affordable, reliable e-target hardware is only the beginning."
Full article at https://www.autotrickler.com/april-2019-update.html
This feature was not on my radar when I selected what E target Brand to propose to my club trustees for my club to invest in for the 600 yard range I manage.
My criterial was
Affordable Initial Cost
*Hands down ShotMarker ( or SMT SOLO )
Accuracy
*Possible slight edge to HEX in high wind conditions. (difficult to quantify)
Recurring labor and materials to repair membranes
*Shotmarker = zero recurring costs unless you shoot a sensor
Ability for one person to set up a target in the carrier by themselves for a practice session.
*Hands down Shotmarker / SOLO. No heavier / harder than a standard target
I believe the HEX targets are around 120lbs each.
I'm 6' 250 lbs but wouldn't try putting a HEX in a carrier by myself.
I also would have had to rebuild / modify my carriers for the heavy HEX units.
Maybe Rick would provide the info on how much a single HEX target weighs?
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As I mentioned earlier I don’t think it will be long before the cheaper units bridge the gap with the more expensive, one of the reasons I purchased a Shotmarker is it’s updatable abilities and Adams dedication to making it better... I think once the bridge has been closed a little more we might see Hexta putting out a price in desperation or fade away in silence with its secret pricing while SM and SMT flourish in the large US and world wide market. ..Just my opinion of course take it for what you will..
Let me explain to you in some other real world examples of pricing of different types of products and services.
If I was selling a product off the shelf, such as a factory rifle (we can all relate to that), where a consumer can purchase the product, and have it shipped to them in a box, and thats the end of the transaction (other than some warranty and after sales service), then you could readily put a retail price sticker on that product as it does not vary depending on who is buying that product and what their individual needs are. The rifle is built to factory specifications - no customisation, everyone gets the same rifle in a box.
I on the other had for example, am a Civil Engineer, I design roads/carparks/stormwater systems/earthworks. I sell my products and services which include designs, design plans, and my IP. I do not advertise how much my services are, or the cost per design plan produced on the web site of the company I work for. This pricing is commercial in confidence information, and also lets other competitors know what price they have to beat. A lot of what I sell when I give people a price for doing work for them is my IP, my "intellectual property", my history and experience gained over 30 years as a practicing engineer, my knowledge in what works, what is going to be the best solution for minimising the costs of your development both during construction and during ongoing operation in the years that follow.
If we relate that same example to a custom rifle builder (which again I hope you can relate to), he/she will typically not put a retail price sticker on a build of a new F-Class rifle. They will listen to what each purchaser wants, tailor the rifle, the stock/barrel/action/trigger/mounts/etc to the individual needs and circumstances. You will pay for the components, plus you will pay for the gunsmiths experience. If you go to a gunsmith who has years of experience, has tested all the different actions and barrels out over the years, keeps on top of current trends in barrel manufacturers, current trends in what cartridges are currently winning at comps, knows what throat dimensions are required on a chamber depending on what specific projectiles you are going to use, then you are going to pay a lot more for that rifle because you are buying that Smiths IP at the same time as the actual product.
If you buy from gunsmith "Bubba", who brought his first lathe last year, supplies trued rem actions from PTG (cause he read on the interwebs that they are the best
Now to answer your original question, if you are selling more than an off the shelf target in a box system, that is tailored to each individual site to suit their specific needs, why would you put the price on your web site?
The above is my opinion in a commercial world of products and services supply.
Adrian
A lot of words.
I have used civil engineers. They have always been up front about the expense associated with the scope of the work needed. I am not prohibited from sharing this information with others that may require that engineers expertise (IP).
When I go to a reputable 'smith he will convey to me his labor costs, based on the components of my choice. I can bring him a box with a Barnard action, a Krieger barrel, a bix 'n andy trigger, and a mastin stock. I know the component cost, he knows the component cost. The reputable 'smith will tell me the cost of assembly, chambering, bedding, pillar installation, and whatever else may be needed. This is far from an off the shelf rifle. The reputable smith will not prohibit me from sharing the cost of his labor for the assembly of my components. Heck, even if I had the 'smith procure the components for me, he still wouldn't object to me sharing the cost of the first rate rifle he assembled.
Let's jump to the HEXTA crew. They may have a first class product, but the cost is a mystery. Even those who have received "estimates" or proposals from HEXTA appear to have non disclosure with them not to disclose the price. Given your examples, and mine, what is reasonable? According to the HEXTA web site, there are three ranges in the USA with the product installed. I have yet to see anyone claiming to be associated with those ranges participating in this ritual of "what does the HEXTA system cost", aka: beating a dead horse.
Then again, if I have to ask the price, it is probably beyond what I would consider reasonable.
John Corning
Are there really that many variables with each installation? Reade Range (PA, USA) and Bridgeville, (DE, USA) share their HEXTA targets on a regular basis. Set up can not be rocket science when two clubs are able to transport the units between them and get them set up for a big matches.
John Corning
So even George has mentioned that HEXTA targets are better. As have others. Therefore, there are two questions that beg answering are; 1) How much better? 2) Are shooters like George willing to pay the difference? Until question #1 is established Ya'll want to compare apples to oranges and value them at the same quality. The Ferrarie - VW senario. You'll always buy the VW and wonder why you can't win any races. Or in our language, a Weaver scope on a custom gun vrs a Golden Eagle or something comparable. So unless a range is begining to realize the difference, and serious about doing their due dilagence, there is no point in me arm wrestling in that arena.
Actually George, it is not "difficult" in any stretch of the imagination. In fact this last spring while in your back yard George, I offered to come to your range and mount one of your targets on the HEXTA and do a test. Just you and me. Remember. And you declined to participate. HMM
Maybe the answer to that question will be born out when the NRA presents their Certification process, eh! So I think patience will win, Turtlt and Hare deal eh
2nd question. Ya I believe when the first question is anwsered, the second one will too.
Someone raised the question of weight. And we examine that issue often. For sure every time, I at my age have to load one off and on the truck. Here is the deal. Contrairy to our miss use of the english language, the term "Sound" wave is a misnomar. It is only a sound when our ears convert the waves to our brain. Targets deal with pressure waves. Or vibration. Vibration transfers through all objects, but at different rates. Wood is one of the best material (for target frame) there is. It does NOT trasfer vibrations to the sensor very readily. DADA. Second, thinks like a plastic frame create another issue. Huge distortions in dimensions from cold to hot. That changes acoustic center, or target accuracy. Oh but for most accuracy doesn't matter. Right.
Actually George, it is not "difficult" in any stretch of the imagination. In fact this last spring while in your back yard George, I offered to come to your range and mount one of your targets on the HEXTA and do a test. Just you and me. Remember. And you declined to participate. HMM
Maybe the answer to that question will be born out when the NRA presents their Certification process, eh! So I think patience will win, Turtlt and Hare deal eh
2nd question. Ya I believe when the first question is anwsered, the second one will too.
Someone raised the question of weight. And we examine that issue often. For sure every time, I at my age have to load one off and on the truck. Here is the deal. Contrairy to our miss use of the english language, the term "Sound" wave is a misnomar. It is only a sound when our ears convert the waves to our brain. Targets deal with pressure waves. Or vibration. Vibration transfers through all objects, but at different rates. Wood is one of the best material (for target frame) there is. It does NOT trasfer vibrations to the sensor very readily. DADA. Second, thinks like a plastic frame create another issue. Huge distortions in dimensions from cold to hot. That changes acoustic center, or target accuracy. Oh but for most accuracy doesn't matter. Right.
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