Large Rifle Magnum Primers
- Thread starter EWaugh
- Start date
I have used many . And I think they should be used when shoot a case with over 50 GR charge And or old weather .
Larry
Ok. Will keep that in mind. We may get a cold day here in TX this year. One never knows. Thanks
EW -
Howdy !
I used FED Large Magnum Rifle Match primers in my .22-35Remington wildcat loads. For my loads/ my gun, they outshot the other offerings which included FED's LR Magnum primer. I was shooting 41.2gr WW760 under 55gr SX, in a 24" 1-14.
The LR Magnum Match primers have also shot well in my " DEEP 6 " wildcat. Case capacity is 51.2gr H2O, and charge is 43.7gr IMR7828; under 95VLDs.
With regards,
357Mag
Howdy !
I used FED Large Magnum Rifle Match primers in my .22-35Remington wildcat loads. For my loads/ my gun, they outshot the other offerings which included FED's LR Magnum primer. I was shooting 41.2gr WW760 under 55gr SX, in a 24" 1-14.
The LR Magnum Match primers have also shot well in my " DEEP 6 " wildcat. Case capacity is 51.2gr H2O, and charge is 43.7gr IMR7828; under 95VLDs.
With regards,
357Mag
In my Lyman and Speer manuals they have * next to any load with double base ball powders. And at the bottom of the page they have * Magnum primer used with this powder.
The manuals also tell you with large cases filled with slow burning powders to use a magnum primer
And all the ammunition loaded at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant has magnum primers.
I use magnum primers in all my 5.56 ammo and use hot spark plugs in my lawn mower to make sure it starts in cool weather.
The manuals also tell you with large cases filled with slow burning powders to use a magnum primer
And all the ammunition loaded at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant has magnum primers.
I use magnum primers in all my 5.56 ammo and use hot spark plugs in my lawn mower to make sure it starts in cool weather.
It depends on a combination of the make of primer, the cartridge characteristics and the use it is put to. Some 'magnum' primers are just what it says on the tin - ie they are designed for large magnum cartridges that hold large charges of a slow burning powder, especially if it is a relatively hard to ignite ball type. So, we're talking cartridges with charges of maybe 70gn and above. Some primer grades are only suited to that sort of task - the Rem 9 1/2M and Federal 215 / 215M (that M=Match, not = Magnum which is the '215' bit). You can use them just fine in a 308 or similar, but they will increase pressures significantly and MVs a bit. They will definitely increase the ES value a lot - double that of a good standard model. So, you'd use the Federal 210M (standard grade + match) for 308 Win in target shooting, but the 215M (magnum grade + Match) for the same purpose in many .300 Win Mag loadings. Generally, in-between types like the short magnums seem to manage fine in summer target shooting with standard match types.
However, some so-called 'magnums' are mild in this sense and apparently work well in smaller cartridges. I've had very good results with the Russian Murom KVB-7M and some lots appear 'milder' than the standard KVB-7. After some side by side testing, I switched from standard / match primers in 7mm Shehane with 59gn or so Viht N165 to the KVB-7M (packaged and originally sold as the PMC LRM) finding it increased MVs marginally (~5 fps) but reduced ES values and with the same loading actually reduced group size too marginally. I've also used this primer in 7mm-08 Rem match loads with 40-odd gn weight charges with good results.
If you're loading a large capacity cartridge for hunting use in very cold temperatures, a 'magnum' grade can be a wise choice. As a rule for smaller cartridges in summer precision match shooting, the opposite applies, but as with any 'rule' there are exceptions to it.
However, some so-called 'magnums' are mild in this sense and apparently work well in smaller cartridges. I've had very good results with the Russian Murom KVB-7M and some lots appear 'milder' than the standard KVB-7. After some side by side testing, I switched from standard / match primers in 7mm Shehane with 59gn or so Viht N165 to the KVB-7M (packaged and originally sold as the PMC LRM) finding it increased MVs marginally (~5 fps) but reduced ES values and with the same loading actually reduced group size too marginally. I've also used this primer in 7mm-08 Rem match loads with 40-odd gn weight charges with good results.
If you're loading a large capacity cartridge for hunting use in very cold temperatures, a 'magnum' grade can be a wise choice. As a rule for smaller cartridges in summer precision match shooting, the opposite applies, but as with any 'rule' there are exceptions to it.
What does Speer know about reloading we don't . Good answer . Smile Larry
In my early days of handloading, I always had the current Speer manual and used it extensively. Initially, I always followed the ball powder / magnum primer advice, but then as I got more experience and a chronograph, I found it a very poor 'rule'. On one occasion, I not only got poor results with magnum primers in a H. BL-C(2) loading, but wrecked some expensive Norma cases with pressure spikes that simply shouldn't have been there at the low charge levels being employed. I eventually decided that magnum primers simply aren't needed for many ball powders and have used standard grades at least initially for a long time now usually with good results.
However .... that's for temperate conditions match use. Take a rifle out into a sub-Arctic winter hunting environment and it's a very different matter. Speer makes bullets primarily for hunters and its loads manual reflects that. In many North American winter conditions, a magnum primer will be useful even for easily ignited extruded powders given serious temperature induced MV drop-offs which can adversely affect the shooter's sight-settings and hold-overs resulting in low shots at longer ranges.
When I tested and wrote up around 14 LR and LRM primers in 308 Win with a 168gn Hornady HPBT Match bullet and Viht N140 load a couple of years back, I found the CCI-250 a mild example in this cartridge and components combination. It gave very similar performance in terms of MV average, ES and SD to most standard models available on the market.
The usual primer related caveats apply of course - that one lot in that particular cartridge and loading. A 260 Rem or 6.5mm Creedmoor load might react differently - but who knows unless you try? If the application was for something in 1,000 yard BR, I'd likely hedge my bets and use CCI-BR2s or F210Ms as a starting point not the CCI-250. But for general purpose range or field use, you'll likely manage just fine.
The one caveat is that if you're changing from a standard primer for an existing load that you've previously worked up to a warm or hot level, then back the powder charge off a grain or 1.5gn and finesse the load back up again keeping an eye out for pressure signs.
Laurie, no disrespect intended but our American military uses magnum primers in their ammo and the reloading manuals tested the ammunition and recommended magnum primers.
Meaning I do not think competitive shooters shoot matches with a foot of snow on the ground and they are shivering with cold.
And Rudyard Kipling said that only "mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noonday sun". I guess Kipling stayed indoors by the fire in cold weather.
Below a CCI BR4
Below Remington 7 1/2
The main reason I posted the photos is Remington ran our Lake City Army Ammunition Plant.
And used the 7 1/2 primer in all 5.56 ammunition they loaded.
I use the BR4 primers in my bolt action with single base powders. And the 7 1/2 primer in my ball powder loads.
These are off the shelf factory rifles and I drink too much coffee to test primers like you do.
Meaning I do not think competitive shooters shoot matches with a foot of snow on the ground and they are shivering with cold.
And Rudyard Kipling said that only "mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noonday sun". I guess Kipling stayed indoors by the fire in cold weather.
Below a CCI BR4
Below Remington 7 1/2
The main reason I posted the photos is Remington ran our Lake City Army Ammunition Plant.
And used the 7 1/2 primer in all 5.56 ammunition they loaded.
I use the BR4 primers in my bolt action with single base powders. And the 7 1/2 primer in my ball powder loads.
These are off the shelf factory rifles and I drink too much coffee to test primers like you do.
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SR primers as used in the 223 and 5.56mm cartridges are a quite different matter. For a start, unlike LR and LRM primers which all specify 0.028" brass sheet for the cup, standard SR primers use 0.020" cups whilst magnums and BRs are normally (Federal 205M aside) 0.025" and usually use a harder brass grade too.
The SR primer was designed for the .22 Hornet in 1930 or thereabouts and was fine for this low pressure cartridge and many subsequent introductions such as the .218 Bee for decades up to the 1950 .222 Rem of 50,000 psi which is reckoned marginal for the standard SR primer cup strength.
223 Rem, 6BR, .308 Win Palma, 6.5X47 Lapua, and other modern SR users running at 55,000 psi + pressures overtax a 20 thou' thick soft primer cup, hence the standardised use of stronger SRM and BR models in these cartridges. Note this has nothing to do with the size / power / formula and ingredients of the explosive pellet inside the cup. Military semi-auto / selective fire weapons using certain firing pin designs lacking a retracting spring also need a hard primer cup for safety to avoid slamfires in their violent chambering action - hence the existence of super-thick/hard but standard power milspec primers used in ammo for the M14 7.62 and M16 5.56mm rifles.
FWIW, Ive done a follow-up full SR primer test of 16 makes / models in 308 Win Lapua 'Palma' brass using a 167gn Scenar / Viht N150 load combination in a Stolle Atlas action FTR rifle ... but have yet to write up and publish the results. In ballistic terms this showed a MUCH smaller performance variation across the 16 types than appeared with a similar number of LR, LRM and BR models - a 35 fps range of average MVs reduced to 18 fps. The range of ES and SD values too was much reduced. One standard primer test had to be abandoned because of primer blanking and several others including the Remington 6 1/2 and CCI-400 barely coped with what was a standard pressure 308 Win loading producing severe cratering, in one or two cases a hair's breadth from blanking. The Stolle action does not have a problem firing pin diameter or fit issue either which is a cause of such problems in some factory actions.
In a warning which seems to have largely disappeared nowadays, but Remington used to advise use of the Rem 7 1/2 or BR model not the old 6 1/2 in the 223 and similar pressure modern cartridges for this reason, nothing to do with igniting 25gn or so of powder. In my 308 Palma brass tests, no primer had any problems igniting 45gn of extruded powder reliably as seen in every model producing a single-figure SD value.
However, when I later tried the recently introduced Hodgdon CFE223 spherical powder from General Dynamics Corp St. Marks, I got hangfires plus a couple of misfires with SR primed Palma brass despite it being a fairly 'hot' Italian Fiocchi SR model showing that this size of primer struggles with 45-49gn of this particular ball powder. That of course is why many military inspired cartridges not much bigger than 5.56 use large primers rather than the small types - a classic example being the Soviet M43 7.62X39mm which although a very small cartridge has to perform reliably in Arctic conditions and which is usually loaded with ball type powders, some of which from Russia and eastern European countries are frankly poor products by western standards.
The SR primer was designed for the .22 Hornet in 1930 or thereabouts and was fine for this low pressure cartridge and many subsequent introductions such as the .218 Bee for decades up to the 1950 .222 Rem of 50,000 psi which is reckoned marginal for the standard SR primer cup strength.
223 Rem, 6BR, .308 Win Palma, 6.5X47 Lapua, and other modern SR users running at 55,000 psi + pressures overtax a 20 thou' thick soft primer cup, hence the standardised use of stronger SRM and BR models in these cartridges. Note this has nothing to do with the size / power / formula and ingredients of the explosive pellet inside the cup. Military semi-auto / selective fire weapons using certain firing pin designs lacking a retracting spring also need a hard primer cup for safety to avoid slamfires in their violent chambering action - hence the existence of super-thick/hard but standard power milspec primers used in ammo for the M14 7.62 and M16 5.56mm rifles.
FWIW, Ive done a follow-up full SR primer test of 16 makes / models in 308 Win Lapua 'Palma' brass using a 167gn Scenar / Viht N150 load combination in a Stolle Atlas action FTR rifle ... but have yet to write up and publish the results. In ballistic terms this showed a MUCH smaller performance variation across the 16 types than appeared with a similar number of LR, LRM and BR models - a 35 fps range of average MVs reduced to 18 fps. The range of ES and SD values too was much reduced. One standard primer test had to be abandoned because of primer blanking and several others including the Remington 6 1/2 and CCI-400 barely coped with what was a standard pressure 308 Win loading producing severe cratering, in one or two cases a hair's breadth from blanking. The Stolle action does not have a problem firing pin diameter or fit issue either which is a cause of such problems in some factory actions.
In a warning which seems to have largely disappeared nowadays, but Remington used to advise use of the Rem 7 1/2 or BR model not the old 6 1/2 in the 223 and similar pressure modern cartridges for this reason, nothing to do with igniting 25gn or so of powder. In my 308 Palma brass tests, no primer had any problems igniting 45gn of extruded powder reliably as seen in every model producing a single-figure SD value.
However, when I later tried the recently introduced Hodgdon CFE223 spherical powder from General Dynamics Corp St. Marks, I got hangfires plus a couple of misfires with SR primed Palma brass despite it being a fairly 'hot' Italian Fiocchi SR model showing that this size of primer struggles with 45-49gn of this particular ball powder. That of course is why many military inspired cartridges not much bigger than 5.56 use large primers rather than the small types - a classic example being the Soviet M43 7.62X39mm which although a very small cartridge has to perform reliably in Arctic conditions and which is usually loaded with ball type powders, some of which from Russia and eastern European countries are frankly poor products by western standards.
Meaning I do not think competitive shooters shoot matches with a foot of snow on the ground and they are shivering with cold.
And Rudyard Kipling said that only "mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noonday sun". I guess Kipling stayed indoors by the fire in cold weather.
I sure as hell don't go shoot matches with a foot of snow on the ground, but I wouldn't say the same for some of the mad dogs and/or people-who'd-get-pretty-mad-if-I-called-them-Englishmen I shoot with.
Liven The Dream
Gold $$ Contributor
CCI 250 Mag. in .308 for M1-A 41.0 gr, IMR 4895 168gr HPBT
Speers bullets are also BN coated which requires a pressure increase higher then naked bullets to equal the velocity...
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