I spent a couple days at the range helping a friend develop a load for his new rifle using ladder testing. I'm really new to guns but it seemed to me that shooting groups was more helpful. Does anybody else concur?
Ladder testing...? anybody prefer just shooting groups?
- Thread starter mparsons911
- Start date
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
I start with ladder testing to find out more less where the gun likes to be. If I find a node with a ladder test between 40-41 grains, at that point I start shooting groups to fine tune things. So, I do a combination of the two, but I start with ladder testing so I don't have to shoot so many groups.
I did, and it is when yer new to loading, there is so much too learn, until I found the Ladder and the OCW techniques,,
Shooting groups is fun, but it sure can use up a lot of bullets an powder. Ya know, 5 shot groups at .5grn increments, then going back and working up the best .5grn selection into the nearest .1grn spread, then etc,,,
Once you become more familiar with what your gun likes, then you can narrow down the spread and dial into the harmonic nodes faster/sooner with less ammo/cost and find a sweet load. It's a learning curve man, just remeber too stay safe and have fun ;D
Shooting groups is fun, but it sure can use up a lot of bullets an powder. Ya know, 5 shot groups at .5grn increments, then going back and working up the best .5grn selection into the nearest .1grn spread, then etc,,,
Once you become more familiar with what your gun likes, then you can narrow down the spread and dial into the harmonic nodes faster/sooner with less ammo/cost and find a sweet load. It's a learning curve man, just remeber too stay safe and have fun ;D
I think the ladder test works best in guns that are very accurate, such as custom target guns, and less well with off the shelf hunting rifles. The reason is that with the pure ladder test you are shooting groups of 1 at each load. If that group of 1 accurately represents where additional shots with the same load would impact, then all is good. However, if the gun "sprays" then one shot is almost meaningless. At minimum you need a 5 shot group to determine probably impact, and ideally multiple 5 shot groups.
The crux of the matter is whether or not the size of the vertical movement due to the ladder load increment is significantly more than the inherent inaccuracy of the gun. If the inherent inaccuracy is larger then trying to read a ladder test result may be much like picking fly do-do out of pepper.
There is a variation of the ladder test that uses 3 shots at each load, which probably works better for less accurate guns. Will work for accurate guns too, but it digests more ammo. See this link:
http://www.optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#
Remember that with both these methods what you are really doing is finding the most tolerant velocity for your barrel, where small variations in velocity have minimal affect on the impact elevation. Once you find a tolerant velocity to work with then you still need to try and reduce velocity variation, which is another tuning exercise.
The crux of the matter is whether or not the size of the vertical movement due to the ladder load increment is significantly more than the inherent inaccuracy of the gun. If the inherent inaccuracy is larger then trying to read a ladder test result may be much like picking fly do-do out of pepper.
There is a variation of the ladder test that uses 3 shots at each load, which probably works better for less accurate guns. Will work for accurate guns too, but it digests more ammo. See this link:
http://www.optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#
Remember that with both these methods what you are really doing is finding the most tolerant velocity for your barrel, where small variations in velocity have minimal affect on the impact elevation. Once you find a tolerant velocity to work with then you still need to try and reduce velocity variation, which is another tuning exercise.
A pure ladder test with factory guns tends to be mostly useless. I run three rounds at each load and watch how the groups open and close as the load changes. It also helps you to see how the barrel oscillates, whether up & down or more likely in a oval.
Now days I use Quickload and the "Optimal Barrel Time" theory from Chris Long to predict nodes and only load 2 or loads increments on either side of the prediction.
http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm
Now days I use Quickload and the "Optimal Barrel Time" theory from Chris Long to predict nodes and only load 2 or loads increments on either side of the prediction.
http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm
Since 2004 I've probably shot over 1000 Audette ladder tests in 30 some odd guns ranging from Factory, Semi custom to full custom. Yes I expieriment a great deal.
heres what I've learned doing that.
If a gun, any gun, won't shoot a ladder it will not shoot groups either. Somethings not right be it bullet, powder or seating depth is way off.
Much more cost effective to learn that in 10-15 than run through 50 or more. Time to "spin the wheel" and make some load changes.
I've also learned IMO that even though a ladder may show a particular tight node it may not produce tight groups for extended periods of fire. That means your barrel is not happy with the fouling characteristics of that certain powder. Wether it burns to clean and copper fouling is collecting steadily or too dirty and carbon is collecting. Groups and lots of em is the only way to tell if a load will hold up in competition without regularily cleaning a barrel.
heres what I've learned doing that.
If a gun, any gun, won't shoot a ladder it will not shoot groups either. Somethings not right be it bullet, powder or seating depth is way off.
Much more cost effective to learn that in 10-15 than run through 50 or more. Time to "spin the wheel" and make some load changes.
I've also learned IMO that even though a ladder may show a particular tight node it may not produce tight groups for extended periods of fire. That means your barrel is not happy with the fouling characteristics of that certain powder. Wether it burns to clean and copper fouling is collecting steadily or too dirty and carbon is collecting. Groups and lots of em is the only way to tell if a load will hold up in competition without regularily cleaning a barrel.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
When I am working up loads, I take all the reloading stuff, wind flags, and chronograph to the range, and pick a day when the wind is easy. Starting with a light, middle of the range load, I shoot carefully, one shot per load, in steps that depend on case size, on the same target, over the chronograph. The seating depth is into the lands by an amount determined by my previous experience with similar bullet profiles, and I keep going up till I get slight resistance to bolt lift, FL sizing every time I reload a case. After I have finished my pressure series, I look the target over to see if any load range shows promise, make an educated guess as to where in that range to test, and if I want to adjust seating depth, and then shoot a rapid two shot group, in a condition that should give me 5-6 seconds to do it. If it looks really good I will shoot a three shot group, if I think that I want to keep looking, I make an adjustment and try two the same way, again. Using this method, I have been able to help friends work up their final hunting loads in less than a day.
Every time that I get into a discussion with someone who is wedded to the idea of only loading at home, I am always amazed at the logic by which they arrive at the conclusion that that is the way to go. I suppose that if one is retired and looking for something to fill ones time that there might be and advantage, but that is about it.
Every time that I get into a discussion with someone who is wedded to the idea of only loading at home, I am always amazed at the logic by which they arrive at the conclusion that that is the way to go. I suppose that if one is retired and looking for something to fill ones time that there might be and advantage, but that is about it.
redrock said:
I'll agree with that. An Audette is just the beginning not the end. Unless of course it patterns like buckshot. For me thats usually the end. Something needs to be changed at that point.
Take into consideration I'm covering the entire broad scale of accuracy from a milsurp to finding the nodes in a ppc. Very different accuracy potentials but the ladder system will give valuable information on both for the amount of shots fired.
from Joe,
"the ladder system will give valuable information on both for the amount of shots fired. "
That's the key, for me at least, again it's about time and $. When I 1st started it was my 223, so powder use wasn't bad, but when ya rip through a box of 50 Barnes TSX to the tune of 45$ per 50 just to be looking at some wonderful targets that still need to be dialed in,,it put's a bit of a pinch on the pocket book,, ;D
"the ladder system will give valuable information on both for the amount of shots fired. "
That's the key, for me at least, again it's about time and $. When I 1st started it was my 223, so powder use wasn't bad, but when ya rip through a box of 50 Barnes TSX to the tune of 45$ per 50 just to be looking at some wonderful targets that still need to be dialed in,,it put's a bit of a pinch on the pocket book,, ;D
Ever since I started reloading, I haven't been able to understand the concept of loading at home when you are doing load development. You will either end up wasting a bunch of time driving back and forth, or pulling a lot of bullets from ammo that doesn't shoot. And wasting a bunch of time and money in the process. Bring your stuff to the range so you can make changes on the spot in similar conditions and see how they affect accuracy.
And not having a press you can bring to the range is no excuse. The Lee hand press works just fine and costs $25. I have been using the same one for 6 years and it's still going strong. It's not the best, but it's better than driving home to change your load.
I use the ladder system for most initial load development myself. I started after a guy at the range told me about it a few years back when trying to find a good load for my Mosin I use in WW1-2 Rifle competition. Ripping off a few hundred rounds of 7.62x54R with a steel butt plate isn't the most fun I've ever had, and the ladder test shortened that by a lot. He helped me load a bunch of rounds in incrementally higher loads, and then showed me how to analyze the results. I have thanked him many times since.
And not having a press you can bring to the range is no excuse. The Lee hand press works just fine and costs $25. I have been using the same one for 6 years and it's still going strong. It's not the best, but it's better than driving home to change your load.
I use the ladder system for most initial load development myself. I started after a guy at the range told me about it a few years back when trying to find a good load for my Mosin I use in WW1-2 Rifle competition. Ripping off a few hundred rounds of 7.62x54R with a steel butt plate isn't the most fun I've ever had, and the ladder test shortened that by a lot. He helped me load a bunch of rounds in incrementally higher loads, and then showed me how to analyze the results. I have thanked him many times since.
I think ladder testing is only worthwhile, when devloping and tuning a load for a rifle with the potential to shoot very small aggs. Doing a ladder test on a Military rifle, or a sporter hunting rifle, is a total waste of time.
I load at home. I also shoot at home. Sure does simplify the load development sequence 
Most often after shooting a ladder I'll walk outside with as few as 5rds in the box. As necchi pointed out components aren't cheap anymore
And yes, that Lee handloader will make ammo just as accurate as any other threaded die bench mounted press.
I would quess FL sizing large brass from a factory chamber in it might be a job I would'nt want to undertake. Never tried it and probably never will.c
dmickey, Just happen to have my book open to a ladder I shot a few months ago. XBR-80gn Bergers in a 6BR 8 twist. I fired twenty rds at .3gn increments from 29.1- 34.5. I ran an entire spread plus some as I'm unfamilar with the powder in this application.
The same test using your method in .5gn increments would require 120rds.
Obviously after my ladder I begin to fine tune. I would assume you need to also.
No problem here. However anyone wants to go about it is fine with me.
Most often after shooting a ladder I'll walk outside with as few as 5rds in the box. As necchi pointed out components aren't cheap anymore
And yes, that Lee handloader will make ammo just as accurate as any other threaded die bench mounted press.
I would quess FL sizing large brass from a factory chamber in it might be a job I would'nt want to undertake. Never tried it and probably never will.c
dmickey, Just happen to have my book open to a ladder I shot a few months ago. XBR-80gn Bergers in a 6BR 8 twist. I fired twenty rds at .3gn increments from 29.1- 34.5. I ran an entire spread plus some as I'm unfamilar with the powder in this application.
The same test using your method in .5gn increments would require 120rds.
Obviously after my ladder I begin to fine tune. I would assume you need to also.
No problem here. However anyone wants to go about it is fine with me.
Can someone point me towards a thread or site that explains how to do a ladder/seating test in plain old English and most importantly how to read them? I'm expecting my new 300 win mag in the next month and don't want to burn the barrel using groups as I have done in the past with other guns I own.
There are some realities to consider in doing a ladder test. For example in a 6BR using min and max loads and a ballistic program you are looking at an elevation point of impact difference of about 0.60" between min and max at 100 yards. If you divide that into 20 incremental loads the difference in elevation comes out to 0.030" per incremental load. Now compare that to a pretty nice group size of 0.20" at 100 yards. It is obvious that the .03" is overwhelmed by the inherent inaccuracy of the gun/shooter combination. And, then think of a more typical but good hunting rifle that shoots 1" at 100 yards. This makes the value of 1 shot at one incremental load somewhat questionable.
It strikes me that the results of a ladder test and appearance of "nodes" may be just random events, and not at all statistically related to real nodes, for sure in the 1 MOA gun, and potentially even in the 0.2 MOA target rifle.
By random events, I would suggest thinking of a lottery. After the lottery is won, we know exactly which number was the winner. One more or one less, no cigar. There is no doubt which is the winner. But if you want to know the winning number of the next lottery, the information is totally useless.
Yes, I know that if you increase the distance then the elevation POI changes, but so does everything else. So, all considered, not sure anything really changes with distance.
Just my theoretical musings...
It strikes me that the results of a ladder test and appearance of "nodes" may be just random events, and not at all statistically related to real nodes, for sure in the 1 MOA gun, and potentially even in the 0.2 MOA target rifle.
By random events, I would suggest thinking of a lottery. After the lottery is won, we know exactly which number was the winner. One more or one less, no cigar. There is no doubt which is the winner. But if you want to know the winning number of the next lottery, the information is totally useless.
Yes, I know that if you increase the distance then the elevation POI changes, but so does everything else. So, all considered, not sure anything really changes with distance.
Just my theoretical musings...
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I don't claim to be doing a classic ladder test. What I am looking for is shots that look like they want to hang together even though the powder charges vary by small amounts. By studying the pattern as a target is shot, you can see this, if the rifle is of good quality. My results do not qualify as scientific, but my method has proven to be useful for getting to a load as quickly as possible. Good shooting conditions, an excellent rest setup, and wind flags are important components in the system that I use to do these tests. It also helps to have one person loading and running the test, and another shooting.
One thing that seems to get overlooked, in discussions of load testing, is that different rifles may need to be rested and/or held differently. The differences in results obtained can be large.
One thing that seems to get overlooked, in discussions of load testing, is that different rifles may need to be rested and/or held differently. The differences in results obtained can be large.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.