• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Keith’s seating depth video

davidjoe

An experimental gun with experimental ammunition
Gold $$ Contributor
Our only true “window” into firearms’ internal ballistics, which we normally have no means to directly observe, is that narrow cylinder gap in revolvers, where we can see such things as propellant preceding the projectile, if not obscured the speed and acceleration of the bullet in that window, possible bullet misalignment and yaw, duration of the charge’s continuing flame relative to muzzle exit, and derivatives that follow from being able to see the spectral intensity of the powder near the case mouth relative to muzzle.

We are in the dark with other firearms, drawing on inference from results. There’s three perceived possible benefits associated with seating depth tinkering: minimizing misalignment propensity, tuning the barrel’s exit timing, and managing peak pressure.

As to barrel timing, Keith’s video shows that there is not a lot of group size difference observable on target when variances in seating depth are fairly large. But there is some, most of the time. Because the worst depth is still sometimes the best group, I would find it very interesting to shoot just one depth, in three big sets at distance and see if there is approximately the same variation as when shooting three different depths. The test seems inconclusive on the issue of group size just as Keith acknowledges but it was plenty sizable to show that if there are differences, they are not large ones, but neither would they need to be.

There are still separate reasons of alignment and pressure, to tinker with seating depth. A bullet jammed into the lands requires higher pressure to be engraved than the same one with more velocity when first engaging the lands. There’s no doubt that higher peak pressure affects brass negatively, and it may also adversely affect soft bullets, and results in higher velocity. Seating deeper at the range after arrival, lowers the velocity of your load.

As to misalignment, this truly was a major consideration with older, secant ogive designs of a higher absolute BC. Bullet makers have tried to reduce seating depth sensitivity by “rounding off” the transition to the bearing surface everywhere like the tangent ogive design, before the chamber can possibly do that more to “one side” of the bullet’s transition, while retaining the triangular cone’s high BC. At least I think this was, mechanically speaking, the goal.

I think Berger hybrids have a more gentle transition to the body than the A-Tip, for example, this 245 EOL versus 250 A -Tip, though the differences lose a bit to the camera then again to resolution limits.

Then look at the last picture, the 190 A-Tip and the 183 SMK. I found that these bullets needed to be jumped considerably to shoot their best.

The difference in transition should be very noticeable, a visible belt line where the light reflects differently. These two 7’s went for broke in the design of the highest weight to BC in the 7mm match game, and they are sensitive to where we seat them, like the old Berger 180 VLD, which has a higher BC than the newer hybrid.

Appreciate Keith’s video for exploring the subject.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0807.jpeg
    IMG_0807.jpeg
    473.9 KB · Views: 146
  • IMG_0806.jpeg
    IMG_0806.jpeg
    136.7 KB · Views: 145
  • IMG_0810.jpeg
    IMG_0810.jpeg
    249.2 KB · Views: 145
Last edited:
I for one did not expect those results from
Keith,s experiment. You keep hearing people say seating depth is the answer and others have told me it doesn’t matter. Im still a firm believer that for my application it is the final answer… perhaps I need to start playing with tuners now.


In LR, it may actually all boil down to a barrel in very good condition and uniform, great bullets. Add BC if windy. Guys sub ammo to another gun, unplanned, shoot records with it.

I intentionally shot thrown powder changes in a .243 to see what difference it made. None. I weighed them as an intermediate step and they varied .2 and it made no difference. Now, I grant that it “could” simply mean my scale is not better than a thrower, but the scores were good.

Then, I recalled seeing unburned kernels exit, in about every slow motion video I’ve ever seen.

Those random kernels not only did not contribute to pressure, they got accelerated themselves to supersonic speed as dead weight. That’s completely unpredictable and unavoidable.

8 years ago, guys insisted on Hodgdon and single base powders, distancing what is now embraced, double-based, dirtier, higher energy powders.

Some practices are falling away, but barrels and bullets remain. It used to be barrels bullets and just one kind of brass. Maybe it’s getting simpler.
 
It has been my experience( and that of a lot of good shooters that I know) , using the most relevant measuring tool, group size, that seating depth can have a BIG effect on accuracy. Referring to the video, if he were to investigate what top shooters do, he would find that virtually all load tuning is basing on anecdotal information. One thing that I get is that shooters can end up thinking that what they have observed with their particular equipment is somehow universally applicable. Question for you, do you use wind flags, between you and the target when testing loads?
 
IOne thing that I get is that shooters can end up thinking that what they have observed with their particular equipment is somehow universally applicable. Question for you, do you use wind flags, between you and the target when testing loads?

Yes, but it’s by reason that I’m so far from an LR range with flags that club matches monthly, with full flags, are about as frequently as I can shoot at 1,000. It’s very frustrating, like Texans needing to snow ski frequently, or say, how I’d imagine being incarcerated is ;), to live 5 hours from Bayou.

On one hand, I think Keith was probably surprised too, but the Berger 180 Target Hybrid is likely the most forgiving, versatile bullet he could have possibly chosen to test, and my thought above, is that they are not all like it is. On the other hand, if the audience is F-Open, it is 95% of what’s on the line, and so it’s completely applicable to them. (There is no piece of equipment, as universally used in Open as the Berger 180 Hybrid or in TR, as its 200.)

We ought not be surprised though, because Brian said that making it seating depth insensitive was the goal several dozens of times, for 1-2 years, way back. But Brian himself wasn’t surprised either, because all makers have long known the tension between self-alignment and BC, or really for that matter, between BC and several traits desirable in bullets.

By the way, those ‘pleats” in the 245 Berger, above, (all of theirs, really) let’s call that what it is - “gold” privilege. They don’t need to be explained, not when they win first place at every match lol. And second and third. No one else dares that, though.
 
Last edited:
Believe what one sees on the paper. Statistics don't mean a whole lot sometimes. Would you want to wear out a perfectly good barrel making statistics? Been there, done that, forewent the Tee shirt. Develop a good set of testing parameters and use good tools when loading. It is impossible to make ammo that is too good and we have the opportunity to make perfect ammo if we pay attention. We are after the "Crumbs" and everything matters.
 
Last edited:
Believe what one sees on the paper. Statistics don't mean a whole lot sometimes. Would you want to wear out a perfectly good barrel making statistics? Been there, done that, forewent the Tee shirt. Develop a good set of testing parameters and use good tools when loading. It is impossible to make ammo that is too good and we have the opportunity to make perfect ammo if we pay attention. We are after the "Crumbs" and everything matters.
I do not believe that we can make perfect ammo, close but not perfect. There are always going to be variations that are out of our control.
 
I for one did not expect those results from
Keith,s experiment. You keep hearing people say seating depth is the answer and others have told me it doesn’t matter. Im still a firm believer that for my application it is the final answer… perhaps I need to start playing with tuners
Seating depth still matters even with a tuner. Watch this when you get a chance.

 
Last edited:
There are few universal answers such as always and never, because it depends is often the correct answer. For my last load development a series of 3-shot groups provided a clear, statistically significant result for seating depth and charge; there is more than one way to design evaluations and analyze data than commonly put forth.
 
Seating depth still matters even with a tuner. Watch this when you get a chance.

Tim and I agree very much on what tuners do but he puts a lot of emphasis on PC. My position for short range is that I've shot many bbls, for several years and remained competitive in short range without chasing the lands. BUT, as the lands erode, we may well go beyond our "full nodal cycle" and no longer be at the top of bbl swing, which I believe has much more value in long range and even rimfire than in short range centerfire shooting. Bottom line, erosion can take us to the bottom of the bbl swing where PC can not happen but it can still shoot small, especially so as distance decreases and velocity variations decrease.

I watched this a while back and without going back through nearly 2 hours of video, I think he and I agree on this as well, just two different games. He focuses a lot on ELR, where I focus most on short to 1000 yards. The further you go out or the more velocity changes, the more critical pc becomes. Tim has a pretty good handle on tuners and I think we are pretty well in agreement on this....which is all relative to poi changes with tune, be it with a tuner or without one at all. Tuners do not create PC. They do allow you to manipulate bbl position at bullet exit though, which lets us achieve pc without load or seating depth changes. But both can get us to the same place, in the end.

The video is a good one and he does a good job of explaining things but I think you have to slow down and take in all he says and what it means to get the most out of it. If you're on the right path already, you'll probably follow right along but if you have different ideas about what tuners do, well, you may not get a handle on what he's saying. There are lots of theories that are mostly just that and they usually cost us time and money if we take the wrong path. Again, the video is good and Tim has a good grasp, IMHO, of what tuners actually do.
 
Last edited:
Tim and I agree very much on what tuners do but he puts a lot of emphasis on PC. My position for short range is that I've shot many bbls, for several years and remained competitive in short range without chasing the lands. BUT, as the lands erode, we may well go beyond our "full nodal cycle" and no longer be at the top of bbl swing, which I believe has much more value in long range and even rimfire than in short range centerfire shooting. Bottom line, erosion can take us to the bottom of the bbl swing where PC can not happen but it can still shoot small, especially so as distance decreases and velocity variations decrease.

I watched this a while back and without going back through nearly 2 hours of video, I think he and I agree on this as well, just two different games. He focuses a lot on ELR, where I focus most on short to 1000 yards. The further you go out or the more velocity changes, the more critical pc becomes. Tim has a pretty good handle on tuners and I think we are pretty well in agreement on this....whicch is all relative to poi changes with tune, be it with a tuner or without one at all. Tuners do not create PC. They do allow you to maniplate bbl position at bullet exit though, which lets us achieve pc without load or seating depth changes. But both can get us to the same place, in the end.
Yea, I think he understands what the tuner will do better than most. I have tried a couple of his suggestions with the tuner and seat depth and it seems he is correct so far.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,974
Messages
2,206,994
Members
79,238
Latest member
claydunbar
Back
Top