K&M Force Gauge Question

[Baily]

I used mine for the first time to night seating 50 bullets and the gauge kinda puzzed me,with readings at .030,.040,.045.,.050 with it set at .000 .Does anyone know what the tolerance should be and what I can do beside annealing cases to get this more on track.Also I was wondeing what kinda of group at 100 yards and 500 yards do you think you will get shooting bullets seated at .030 mixed with ones seated at .050 . Thanks for all your help!

 

[billmo]

Baily, I have just begun to work with one of Ken's bullet seating devices too. The only other thing that I have been told about is neck tension. I think the most desirable neck tension is @ .002. So whatever amount that seating your bullet "opens" the case mouth,measured just prior to seating the bullet) and then measured after seating the bullet is the amount of neck tension you have. Neck tension can be controled by the size of the bushing in your die if you are using a bushing "type" die. I am sure others on the site can tell you other methods of controling it, but I have not used any of the other methods to date. I can tell you that reducing neck tension from .004 to .006 down to .002 will make a difference in the way your tool operates and I believe that it will increase your accuracy. I have seen improvements in my handloads on the calibers that I have had a chance to work with thus far. I hope this helps. Bill

I'm sure .020 will make a difference.

 

[Bubb]

I am one of the Truley lucky ones Ken Markel of K&M reloading tools lives less than 2 miles form me and Yes he is that good!!!! He knows more about what happens when the firing pin falls than you think someone really should. I do have some of his stuff and its great. BUT the best thing about using some of the best reloading equipment in the business is if you have any questions call ken!!! He has quit the set up at his place, but its just him and his wife. I love going over there its like goig to your grandparents house! He has helped me so much its unbeliveable. If your have anything of his and need help call him!!!! Thats why I buy his stuff and not others that the big names have, cuase they leave it up to you with no one to ask is this right!! Call Ken he'll help you figure out what your doing wrong and how to properly adjust it the way it way desinged for and to get the greatest advantage!!!! And don't feel bad if you have to ask him to dumb it down He can get really in deapth and use some big word!!! But he is one of the nicest guys to walk the earth and I feel luck to have him as a neighbor! Tell him His barber sent you

 

[Baily]

Thanks for the replys.My cases are resized with a bushing that is .003 smaller than a loaded round.

 

[billmo]

Are you re-sizing the entire neck or do you have the die backed off from the shellholder somewhat? I find it better to just re-size app. 3/16" down from the mouth of the case. You may want to try dropping another .001 if you have the bushing. I don't think I would order one until maybe you placed an order for some other stuff.

A couple of other questions. What cartridge are you working with and are you turning the necks? Bill

 

[Bob3700]

Bailey,

I am interested in the K&M Tool and would like to know what force the gauge is registering in. What units of measure if any? Ounces of force etc.

I have found that low neck tension has provided the best ES and SD numbers for me. To get them, I am using a "S" type bushing die with the ID of the bushing the same as a loaded round. You have to play with this a little depending on your brass thickness.

I want the bullet to seat in the case using only the weight of the loading press handle.,RCBS Rockchucker Press here)

You can get that by only sizing the brass .0005-.001" smaller than the bullet. Polish the inside of the necks with steel wool wrapped around an old used cleaning brush.,make sure you blow the case out with compressed air) You can also try a sizing mandrel,AKA Lyman "M" die) to uniform the inside of the necks. Then, apply graphite/moly powder to the inside of the case neck.

Bullet seating should be pretty low pressure and consistent with the above technique.

Give it a try and see what happens.

Bob

 

[billmo]

Bob, sounds like some good advise. The K & M arbor press neck tension tool uses a regular .001 increment dial indicator mounted at the top of the press adapter. Go to the home page and scroll down to gear reviews. The press with adapter is on the left part way down page. Bill

 

[mikecr]

I picked up RSI's Loadforce along the way for measuring actual pressure in seating. With it I can see seating pressure as graphed on my laptop.

But the results are predictable, and I should have considered them beforehand. Seating force as measured is as much dependent on speed and friction, as amount of sizing.
I'm pretty sure there will only be 2 ways to measure neck tension, both involving hydraulics.

With one method, a ram with a well metered speed could push a nitride coated mandrel through necks, while measuring force.
The significant force being only that needed to move the mandrel at speed, after clearing the mouth, and prior travel stop.

Another way is use of an expanding mandrel with measured pressure needed to produce expansion of ~.001"
This rate of expansion would also have to be metered well. Also, with this method tension adjustments could actually be made to a set value.

The K&M measures force mechanically. Loadforce uses a transducer. But you cannot produce the force measured in a meaningful way, by seating bullets.
Oh well..

 

[Baily]

I'm seating the bullets with wilson seating die.The cases has be fired 4 times.I also cleaned up the flash holes to.062 to 0.063 - My groups have opened up compared to how it shot before at 100 yards.It was shooting in the .2's and now it more like .65's. The case has been turned to .267,loaded round) and before I turn them I expaned them with a K&M Expander.I do shot at the 500 yard range here at home but mostly behind my house at 100 yards. I have had this problem in the past with groups opening up and just can't find the problem.I'm thinking it is in the necks now that I see whats going on when seating bullets with the force guage.Do you think .030 into the lands hard will fix the problem or annealing the cases? If 0.030 into the lands is the answer what should I do when I start shooting my 6mm Dasher.I here it likes to be 0.015 off the lands.It seam at,virgin) brass everything goes well until the brass get 4 or 5 firings on them.Maybe anneal ling will help.You gentleman know more about this than I do and thanks for all the replies and future help.I'm like a sponge at this point and learning alot.
Anthont L.

 

[Preacher]

After 4 firings I would anneal the brass, it work hardens and you will loose accuracy
from that also.

 

[Baily]

OK Gentlemen.
I started with 15 cases to do a test run.I annealed them then I took a RCBS neck brush wrapped it with steel wool and run it in the necks.As I was resizing the neck I was checking to make sure I was getting the right neck tension and it was tighter than I was wanting so I changed out my bushing from a .263 to a .265.On the inside of the necks I'm getting .240 to .2405.Now I ran all 15 on the K&M neck expander and I all ready could tell that it was way smother than before.Re-sized all again to make consistent.OK when seating bullets I got *4-.015 *2-.018 *5-.020 *3-.025 *1-.030 the seating was a lot smoother than before and I also put Graphite on the inside of the necks before seating.I'm going to try this now at 100 yards and see what I get.Today here in SC the wind is blowing very hard.If any of you Men here see some thing wrong let me know. Thanks AWL

 

[billmo]

Wind is whipping here in coastal N C too man. Sounds like you are gaining some ground. I have recently learned that proper neck tension and "extra" effort with the brass will help you out a whole lot in the consistancy dept. Not trying to cut anyone on the site as far as knowledge goes but Catshooter and Gunamonth have helped me out a tremendous amount. This is a good place to learn and have fun too. Bill