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K&M arbor press use questions

I have one of these and have been using it for .308 for a while and have a few questions. I'm using a Lee collet die on the neck of Lapua brass. When seating bullets I see inconsistencies you wouldn't think would be there with being as meticulous as I've been. I expand new brass with a mandrel, then use the collet die. On brass after fired one or more times, I use the collet die followed by a body die. The once or more fired are always more consistent on the indicator when seating and I've always credited that to the neck being smoother.

How consistent should I expect on the indicator of the press? Are there any tricks of the trade for using this thing? Thanks
 
jelrod1 said:
I have one of these and have been using it for .308 for a while and have a few questions. I'm using a Lee collet die on the neck of Lapua brass. When seating bullets I see inconsistencies you wouldn't think would be there with being as meticulous as I've been. I expand new brass with a mandrel, then use the collet die. On brass after fired one or more times, I use the collet die followed by a body die. The once or more fired are always more consistent on the indicator when seating and I've always credited that to the neck being smoother.

How consistent should I expect on the indicator of the press? Are there any tricks of the trade for using this thing? Thanks
jelrod,
I don't do much with .308's but on 6mm stuff I use the same set up you have and if your shooting long range consistent seating pressure is a absolute must, you have to brush the inside of the necks, use a tight fitting nylon brush, and if you have a rcbs prep station or something similar or even a drill is better then by hand but at anyrate they need brushed, I would try three or four full strokes, and increase if need be, I think you will see it come down into the 25-35 range on your dial with just brushing alone, because your using a collet die and usually you only have .002-.003 neck tension with one of those anyway, but you may need less neck tension or partial neck sizing, try the brushing first.
Wayne.
 
Thanks. So basically the goal is to polish the inside of the neck to smooth it up? I feel good about the size being consistent, it's the friction I think doing it so smoothing it up should help. Wonder if anyone has ever tried honing the inside of the neck? Gives me an idea to try at the shop. Thanks again.
 
Wayne is spot on about the nylon brush. If everything is right I get an extreme spread of 3-4 on the dial. Now remember, you are measuring seating force. What the gun sees is bullet release. The neck expands to release the bullet, the bullet does not slide out of the neck. I have tested different internal neck finishes, they will give very different numbers on the km dial, but if you use the same neck bushing and the brass is all annealed the same, the gun will shoot the same. Its a neat tool, just don't put too much concern into it.
 
Thanks. Yes they do shoot good with very low ES on the chrono. I just see more differences on the K&M indicator than I think I should and was wondering what to expect from it. I will try the nylon brush and see what differences I get from it.
 
jelrod1 said:
Thanks. So basically the goal is to polish the inside of the neck to smooth it up? I feel good about the size being consistent, it's the friction I think doing it so smoothing it up should help. Wonder if anyone has ever tried honing the inside of the neck? Gives me an idea to try at the shop. Thanks again.
NO!! sir,...do NOT!! hone the inside of the neck, just use the brush, you need that natural lube qualities of the carbon, if you remove it all, with steel wool or what ever your bullets will seat really hard!! just brush them clean and burnished smooth with the brush, I think you will find while playing around with it you will notice different seating pressures, just for kicks take some 0000 steel wool and really polish the neck on one that isn't your best piece of brass and seat a bullet, you will see what I mean, I have played with this alot.
Wayne.
 
I see what you mean i think. Kind of like seating in a new case that has been expanded and run through the collet die. Even though its size is ok, it's still harder to seat without a little carbon to help. I have to ask though, if during bullet release it doesn't really slide out what effect will harder seating have?
 
jelrod1 said:
I see what you mean i think. Kind of like seating in a new case that has been expanded and run through the collet die. Even though its size is ok, it's still harder to seat without a little carbon to help. I have to ask though, if during bullet release it doesn't really slide out what effect will harder seating have?
I am not sure what the effect would be on bullet release but I have found even new cases seat easier when brushed. Boyd Allen or perhaps johara1 or Erik Cortina could answer your technical questions. Boyd Allen is very sharp give him a p.m
Wayne.
 
Here's the deal. I know a fellow. who is a near the top of the Benchrest Hall of Fame, and he tested different methods of dealing with neck cleaning, a long time ago, using a better tool than many shooters have available, an accurate short range benchrest rifle. Based on those tests, he does not clean the inside of his case necks at all. Now I am not saying that this is what all of you long range guys should do. Perhaps the difference in ES requirements between long and short range, the characteristics of the neck (thickness and tension), amount of bullet in the neck, and typical powder may define a different reality. What I am pointing out, is that first of all he adopted a practice on the basis of careful testing by shooting, and that he was not deterred from doing what those tests proved to him even though he may be the only short range shooter that I know that does not clean the insides of his necks. My suggestion is that you may want to use something like the Imperial Case Neck Lube for the first seating on new cases, to simulate what powder fouling will give you on the following ones. Another thing, I don' t know whether the bullet slides out of the neck, or expands before it moves, but I can tell you that neck tension affects tune to a noticeable degree, and it only seems logical to me that consistency of neck friction on the bullet would affect consistency of tune and velocity. Do some testing and tell us what you come up with. Of course I have to put in my plug for doing this by loading at the range, so that you can easily make changes as new information develops. (and as I give this advice, I fully understand that many of you will not follow it)

Added a few minutes later: Of course few will shoot a match with unfired brass, so the advice to use Imperial will for you be unnecessary, and we in the world of PPC generally have to fire form cases which provides the desired powder fouling inside our case necks. For those who may be interested, I have generally used worn out bronze bore brushes on my case necks, and run them in and out of necks, quickly, about three times. I like the bronze because it seems to do a good job when used this way, although I really should give my friend's no clean method a try, since he shoots better than I do. (and for that matter, a lot of other shooters) Perhaps next time I get to the range I will do my own test, if I remember. Next priority, my second cup of coffee for the morning.
 
Thanks Boyd. I have ordered a Bench Source annealer and will also try brushing the necks. I will keep posted on the progress.
 
Another small item that makes a difference in runnout for me is added attention to the case mouth chamfering process, especially if cases are trimmed back. I use a regular chamfer tool first on inside and outside of case mouth lightly, then a light VLD chamfer on the inside of the case mouth, then I push the case mouth into a pad of 0000 steel wool and turn it back and forth 5 to seven times. I can actually feel the the smoothness increase so that there are no burrs or imperfections left to push on the bullet as it enters the case mouth which can add to runnout.
 
jelrod1 said:
Thanks Boyd. I have ordered a Bench Source annealer and will also try brushing the necks. I will keep posted on the progress.

You won't be disappointed with the Benchsource.

22BRGUY said:
Another small item that makes a difference in runnout for me is added attention to the case mouth chamfering process, especially if cases are trimmed back. I use a regular chamfer tool first on inside and outside of case mouth lightly, then a light VLD chamfer on the inside of the case mouth, then I push the case mouth into a pad of 0000 steel wool and turn it back and forth 5 to seven times. I can actually feel the the smoothness increase so that there are no burrs or imperfections left to push on the bullet as it enters the case mouth which can add to runnout.

I agree...I really like the K&M tool.
 
Besides possible burrs, simple chamfer cutting leaves sharp edges just inside the case mouth which can catch the bullet jacket on its way in to the case mouth...thats where the 0000 steel wool smooths out those sharp edges.

I totally agree though with the others on how they clean the inside of the case neck with a brush but not so much as to remove all carbon.

Regarding your friend Boyd, I can't disagree with his results, but if I don't brush the inside of the necks somewhat, it feels like the bullet seats harder. Do you notice that or is it just me?
 
22BRGUY said:
Besides possible burrs, simple chamfer cutting leaves sharp edges just inside the case mouth which can catch the bullet jacket on its way in to the case mouth...thats where the 0000 steel wool smooths out those sharp edges.

I totally agree though with the others on how they clean the inside of the case neck with a brush but not so much as to remove all carbon.

Regarding your friend Boyd, I can't disagree with his results, but if I don't brush the inside of the necks somewhat, it feels like the bullet seats harder. Do you notice that or is it just me?
I always brush my necks with a neck brush wrapped in steel wool. I do notice an increase in seating pressures if I don't. I use a K&M force meter to have a number for reference. I don't worry about getting every bit of carbon out when I clean the necks. I put the brush in a drill and run the neck up and down the brush one time. I keep the neck/steel wool fit fairly snug. After a few cases, I need to add a tiny bit of steel wool to the brush.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. Very interesting discussion. I have been brushing the necks after tumbling, just not as meticulous as it sounds you are. I will test several methods and see what differences it makes on the K&M.
 
jelrod1 said:
Thanks for the replies guys. Very interesting discussion. I have been brushing the necks after tumbling, just not as meticulous as it sounds you are. I will test several methods and see what differences it makes on the K&M.
Boyd,
Do you remember the "POP" sound thread? well when I prep new brass I use 0000 steel wool the first time only, but I find more tension is required with squeaky clean necks then with dirty ones, I like to just brush but not to where there clean clean, I think the 0000 steel wool leaves residue behind that impregnates itself into the case and bullet adding to bullet grip, these are just my thought and are based on nothing more then just my feeble thoughts ;)
Wayne.
 
I think that if you put the inside of the necks that you polished with 0000 under very high magnification, you would see lots of little grooves running around the inside of the neck, and these are what increases your seating force requirement. If you want to look at what 0000 can to to a softer copper alloy, tightly grip a pad of it around the bullet of a loaded round, and spin the round a few times. The little rings make seeing if a bullet touches the rifling a lot easier. Brass is a harder than a bullet jacket, but it is still a lot softer than the 0000.
 
Quote: The once or MORE fired are more consistent on the indicator & I've always credited that to the neck being smoother......... jelrod1, I've found that the reason for the smoother neck is the fact that each time the neck is sized w/ an LCD the neck is compressed to the mandrel. Each time the LCD is used the necks become more uniform in bullet contact area. IE: smoother seating. To prove this look at the inner neck contact area (scuff) on new brass vs. two or more times fired brass. I'm sure that dragging the neck over the mandrel once its been "colleted" also adds to the inner smoothness. Using a mandrel die plus the LCD might be helping to advance the the forming of smooth, consistent inner neck surface. Just a thought.
 
Another thing about firing smoothing the inside of necks.....Don't forget that the combination of powder particles and hot gasses does some smoothing of its own. The best example that I can think of is back when I did an experiment that involved using a ream die to do the inside of necks, before turning the outside. After that, for their first loading, because of the reamer putting tool marks inside of the necks, the force it took to seat bullets was increased quite a bit above what it was when they were simply turned to thickness. This roughness was smoothed out by a couple of firings, and it was not just filled in with powder fouling. These necks never saw an expander or mandrel in use.
 

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