Just TWO-shot groups to start?
- Thread starter jeffreybehr
- Start date
I am pretty familiar with my own shooting tendencies. If 2 are separated by.250" and the 3rd is "out" by .380" then that is within my realm of accuracy. If one is "out" by .750" then I have to honestly ask myself was that "Me" shooter error or was that the load.
Again, why a 2 shot example is not for me. For those that can accomplish this, my hat is off to you.
Jud96
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There’s guys in here with more experience than me, but I use 2 shots to start. I believe in the phrase “if 2 don’t touch the 3rd won’t make it any smaller”. For a hunting rifle, I don’t necessarily need to see them touch but if 2 shots are .3-.4” @ 100 yards then I’m happy and move on. With a PPC I look for 2 shots to look like a ragged hole and sometimes like one 6mm hole. I do the same for powder as I do seating depth.
I look for at least 3 loads in a row that shoot small and have the same or very similar point of impact. For powder charges under 40gr I use 0.2gr increments in powder, for 40+ gr loads I use 0.3gr increments. I use .003 increments in seating depth. For a hunting rifle I typically start .010 off the lands and work back to .030-.040 off, I usually find something acceptable in that window. For a PPC I’ll usually start at touch and work in. After I find my “nodes” or “windows” I’ll test more with 3-5 shot groups.
I don’t have access to any range further than 100 yards on a regular basis, so I tune everything at short range. I have minimal experience with ladder tests at long range, but the basis for that was we shot 2 shots of each load and looked for where 2-3 loads grouped together then the next load “climbed” up the paper.
It’s important to note, a good rifle, components, scope, shooter, rest, and having a calm day and/or shooting over flags will make everything way simpler. I’ve battled mediocre rifles and not having a clue how much every detail mattered before and it can be frustrating and discouraging. Also, don’t be afraid to switch powders or bullets if things aren’t working. I’ve burned up hundreds of rounds trying to force a combo to work to simply switch to a different powder and everything come together.
I look for at least 3 loads in a row that shoot small and have the same or very similar point of impact. For powder charges under 40gr I use 0.2gr increments in powder, for 40+ gr loads I use 0.3gr increments. I use .003 increments in seating depth. For a hunting rifle I typically start .010 off the lands and work back to .030-.040 off, I usually find something acceptable in that window. For a PPC I’ll usually start at touch and work in. After I find my “nodes” or “windows” I’ll test more with 3-5 shot groups.
I don’t have access to any range further than 100 yards on a regular basis, so I tune everything at short range. I have minimal experience with ladder tests at long range, but the basis for that was we shot 2 shots of each load and looked for where 2-3 loads grouped together then the next load “climbed” up the paper.
It’s important to note, a good rifle, components, scope, shooter, rest, and having a calm day and/or shooting over flags will make everything way simpler. I’ve battled mediocre rifles and not having a clue how much every detail mattered before and it can be frustrating and discouraging. Also, don’t be afraid to switch powders or bullets if things aren’t working. I’ve burned up hundreds of rounds trying to force a combo to work to simply switch to a different powder and everything come together.
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I am not that smart to answer that question. I just use 3 shots groups when trying a new bullet or powder which is rare these days since I do not do much load development anymore.
But when I do, if a get a 3 shot group that is significantly better doing the eye test, I will pursue that load for further testing. If a get a flyer on another group and call it, which I fairly good at, then I'll give it another chance. Nothing scientific about my method, just what I have used over the years.
I do believe if you are going to start cranking out rounds for a certain load, you want to be sure it's a load that will meet your needs. Therefore, the more groups you can test with that load to verify it, the better. I usually use 3, 5 shot groups on a load I have chosen for mass production.
Fast14riot
Gold $$ Contributor
Basically what most of us are saying, 2 shot groups are the coarse mesh we use first to sort out the finer tuned areas that require a closer look. My previous post I said I shoot 2 for pressure testing, 3 for seating or fine tuning. This is all at 100 yards. Once a good load window is identified, I may load 1 or 2 strings for 600 or 1000y final testing. 2 round testing is very early in the process and assumes some known good variables like shooter, barrel, chamber, etm.
First I don't compete unless you count dead animals and I don't know to what purpose your rifle is used. I use 2 and 3 shot groups all the time HOWEVER, my goal is cold bore zero in hunting rifles, generally with sporterized military bolt rifles.. The process is time consuming but produces very usable field loads.
My theory is that any rifle that with a cold bore that produces tight 2 shot groups, 2 shots that touch most importantly on the point of aim is all you need for hunting.
I have a model 17 Remington in 06, my son has an 03A3 Smith Carona in 06, I have a 96 Swede in 6.5 x 55 that all produce tight 2 shot 100 yard groups in all these rifles the 3rd and subsequent shots spread the groups.
My varmint rifles groups are tracked over time noting weather conditions and are based on an average of many multiple shot groups. These rifles do require that the bore be fouled before heading out to hunt.
My military self loading rifles operate at lower pressures and therefore do not suffer short barrel life with long slow fired shot strings so I average 10 and 20 shot groups.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
I like the 3-shot method when laddering, as it is not just the one 3-shot group that tells me whether a load is in the making - it is a series of groups in the ladder. I have always been suspect of two-shot groups, even when evaluating the string. I would rather fire that extra shot to give me more assurance. It can be tough to decide on 5-shot groups sometimes. I find that happens a lot more, the fewer the number of shots fired.
Orr89rocz
Silver $$ Contributor
Works fantastic for me in various rifles
tom
Gold $$ Contributor
I use 2 with powder (coarse) as a means to identify where to narrow it down with 3 of each. I do everything for a 1,000 yard rifle at 1,000, including bore sighting and zeroing though. I could imagine how the same approach would work at 100, but I would likely change to a level line with multiple aim points.
At 1,000, like below, it is pretty obvious where to continue next session.
Tom
At 1,000, like below, it is pretty obvious where to continue next session.
Tom
tom
Gold $$ Contributor
Looking at your 1000 yard ladders never gets old
Lol, that's an oldie! But, that was a good example of a readable 2 shot ladder, that the barrel likes the powder/combo. Most of these things we go straight to finer increments once we've had 100 barrels do the same thing. This wsm was the last time I did a "tall coarse" ladder. It is easy to identify nodes, and even which powders it likes for me...hence the line drawn from low to high, notice it doesn't leave the "highway". I like when they stay straight, even with conditions probably picking up as I ran upward, it stayed "between the lines".
Tom
Jud96
Site $$ Sponsor
tom
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes, I treat it no different than a relay. Try to get started in something you figure will hold. And I tend to not correct, but note what changes I see happen. Sporter barrels have to be handled differently of course, and is a great time for "one shot groups" lol, or what would be a true "ladder test".
Tom
I use the Berger system and start with a middle of the road powder charge and test for seating depth. Then I choose the smaller groups hoping they are in sequence and test again with 5 shot groups. Then move on to tweaking the powder charge. 2 shot starting groups look good when testing copper bullets at near a dollar a pop. I am lucky, my 300 yard range is in my back yard so I can quickly get to my reloading room.
My initial ladders will be 2 shots. In these 2 shot groups I'm looking for grouping, pressure, ES. This shows me what the rifle doesnt like. This is quick and then I drop back to areas that showed promise and load ladders with larger sampling in those areas. Its always worked for me. YMMV
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
Go to post 43 and read the last sentence. This seems to be a pretty popular method but the problem may not be the componet choice. Unless I missed it in this post I have not seen one mention of flags. If your not monitoring conditions your chasing fools gold. I saw one tiny mention of bench manners. If you can't tell you did not shoot a shot properly you need to get a Springer air rifle and learn bench manners. Nothing will educate you on them quicker. My goal is to deliver the maximum number of tuned shots out of a barrel During Competion not just to hear the gun go bang.I wonder what the goal is of some? So if what I just stated offends you, good, maybe it will help get you pointed in a better direction.
When testing groups for a hunting rifle when the max range is say 400 yards. Knowing that the the 1st "cold bore shot" may be the only one you have. I leave the rifle and ammo outside for an hour before i shoot. Then allow the rifle to cool off for at least 1/2 hr between shots. Use the same point of aim for at least 5 shots. Dont need bug hole groups. Groups under 2" @ 300 yards is good enuff for a whitetail. JMHO
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