Just shot my first handloads this weekend.....questions.

[nra-for-life]

hi everyone.

i loaded up some 80 rounds of 22-250 for the first time ever loading any cartridge and went out and shot them this weekend. Anyway I have a bunch of questions about loading. i was able to get some groups with some of the loads i made that averaged about a half to quarter moa better than the best factory loads ive tested, but i know there is plenty of accuracy left to be squeezed out yet. the best group of the day was a .301" clover leaf but the average of the day was more like 1" to 3/4" groups.

what graduations of grain increments do you usually increase in your cases for testing and trying to find that accurate blend of powder and bullet? ive seen some people on here are doing 1/10 of a grain increases which is probably overkill for me. the rifle i'm shooting is a stock savage and the scale weighing the charge is an rcbs chargemaster combo.

is it okay for the seating die to be leaving marks on the bullet from seating? i'm using the forster seating die with the mic and a co-ax press. seems to leave a mark or indention on the bullet after seating it which i cant imagine is going to help accuracy at all. thoughs anyone? is this normal?

what would be acceptable runout on the case necks? i sorted the brass between cases with under 2 thou runout and cases with over 2 thou runout.....the cases with over 2 thousanths runout seem to open up by at least an extra 1/4" i f not more... has anyone else here experienced similar results??? what is the best way to manage case neck runout...? is neck turning the only real option... i was prestty dissapointed that the forster full length sizer didnt give me more consistant results but i guess of the runout is caused by an inconsistant case neck width then there is not much that the die alone can do to fix that... thoughts???? my cases are all hornady (once fired by me).

how big of a factor will segregating bullets by weight be? I didnt do this on the first go around but i think i might give it a try on the next round of handloads...



thanks in advance for opinions and any advice.

 

[nra-for-life]

oh also what is likely the best distance to experiment with on setting the bullet away from the lands? I have the hornady tool to check my overall length (from the o-give) as well as bullet seating depth in the chamber. i set my bullets back 1 thou from the shortest measurement that i made which i have now realiized was probably not set back far enough and infacyt a lot of the bullets were likely sitting right on the lands. thoughts anyone? thank you

 

[TheSnake]

Looking at this thread and your others, you had several bullet types and at least two powders you were going to work with. What did you end up doing on these 80 rounds? Did you load several groups of a single bullet using the same powder and seating depth and just change the powder weight to start narrowing down what your gun likes? From your groups you just fired, you should be able to determine about what powder weight your gun likes and can keep everything the same moving up and down 3 or 4 tenths of a grain from there. When you get your powder weight where you like it, you can then play with bullet seating depth to further reduce your groups.

Yes brass quality will make a difference with neck wall consistency. I believe you went the cheaper route on brass to start with and there nothing wrong with that. To get your brass more consistent, you may need to true up the neck wall thickness by turning the necks slightly.

If you can tell us what your rifle is and your ideal group size is, you may be able to save some time by determining what the rifle and your ability is. Your slightly over 1/4 MOA (assuming you are shooting at 100 yards) is not bad for a hunting rifle but if you have a full custom rifle and your goal is to shoot in the 2's, you will need better material, better reloading equipment, time and lots of experience to get there consistently. And you may need to measure the powder down to that some/10th to do it.

First time reloading shooting groups in the 3's ain't nothing to complain about for sure.

There are many variables in accurate reloading and all you can do is try to eliminate them one at a time while working towards your goal. And the moment you change powder, bullet or brass, you have to start from scratch all over again.

 

[Elkbane]

NRA,
I'll take a shot at a few of your questions:

Best way to manage neck run-out - unless you want to turn necks - have uniform brass to start with. I'm not trying to be obtuse. The Forsters are good dies, but if your neck wall thickness is not uniform, the expander ball will "follow the hole" and you'll have runout. The only fix for non-uniform necks is to turn them to a uniform dimension or buy better brass. My 22-250 shot decent with Win brass, but I could never get concentricity under control. It all got better when I "bit the bullet" and bought some Nosler (Norma) brass....this was before I got into neck turning. Now one of my first questions when looking at a new caliber is whether Lapua or Norma make brass for it.....

Testing loads - you can get a false reading testing a bunch of diferent powders and bullets in one session. Sometimes you need to "shoot in" the barrel with a new powder / load before its accuracy can be assessed. Different powders leave different barrel residues and the results with one load may not be evident immediately after you switch loads. I'd pick one proven powder and stick with it (like Varget or H380) until you are either satisfied or know you can't get it to shoot. Pressures in a 22-250 can be a little sneaky, so I'd load test in .2 or .3 gr increments...I prefer the OCW method of load testing - finding a powder charge range that prints to the same POI, then fine-tuning the load with seating depth changes. That process just works out more efficiently for me, with respect to time and $. Sme thing with bullets. Find one you want to shoot then let the barrel tell you whether it likes it or not. 60 gr bergers worked great in mine.

Your Barrel - I had a one Savage 22-250 barrel that was pretty rough to start with. During inital cleaning, I could feel a patch drag in the barrel. I used JB bore paste on it right away and it turned into one of my better barreels after I had 100 rounds or so through it. BUt I had to stay on top of the cleaning regimen - it was a copper and carbon magnet.

With respect to concentricity - I view the concentricity guage as a diagnostic tool, not a sorting tool. You can use it to help find out the source of the problem and correct it. I measure case necks and look for <1.5 thou. If you are using "cheap" brass, mark those that have high runout - unless you want to turn them, you may have to discard those cases. Then further, use the tool to test your seating process - on uniform case necks, is the bullet seating process degrading the concentricity? I look for <3 thousands runout with teh dial indicator set 1/8" back from the bullet tip. Mark any cases again that consistently throw off high runout and discard them.

Neck Turning - I'd only do this on a 22-250 as a last resort. 22-250 cases with their angled body tend to stretch a bit and you will eventually get case shoulder material migrating into the neck, and you will have to turn them again. If you decide to go this route, I'd get K&M expander and truning tool, with a caseholder for power screwdriver. It's about as painless turning process as Ive come up with.

Sorry for the rambling response....
Elkbane

 

[Shynloco]

nra-
Alot of what has already been said gives you plenty of info to "play" with. And fropm what I'm seeing, you are chasing accuracy similar to what I do as I don't hunt and haven't in years. I shoot weekly at my local range chasing in the infamous, five shot-one holer. Because of that, I load in 6 - 7 different calibers and flatly gave up on 22-250 simply because I've found it's a caliber that simply couldn't keep up with .223, 6mm, .308 and 6.5. I bought a new Ruger M77 Target Rfile a couple of years ago and tried everything I could think of all the way down to using various comibinations of bullets, powders and of course Lapua brass, a must for consistent accuracy. And the best I could ever get at 100 yds were five shot groups where every bullet formed a nice cloverleaf and that 1/4 - 1/2 moa stuff. Still didn't warm my little black heart. So I ended up using that rifle for the platform for a caliber changeover to 6.5 X 55 that is still in the works with a new Hart Match Grade 1:8 twist for 140 Begers and 142 Sierra VLD's. Bottom line, there are just some calibers better suited to hunting and will never cut it for target shooting accuracy.

The one thing I didn't try despite using Redding and Wilson Dies and ESPECIALLY a Wilson Seater Die with the micro head, is what I do now with all my relaoding and that is to remove the expander ball from your FL die. Now I know there has been a long standing and on going discussion about that, atopic I'm NOT trying to rekindle. But what I do is FL size all my Lapua Brass (turned and unturned) and rather use a Sinclair Mandrel Die to set my necks. The one thing it does for sure is promotes excellent concentricity in my finished cartridges, something that someone else wrote about before. DOn't know if you want to go to that extreme, but it does make a difference, at least with my dies for that concentricity issue when it comes to checking them on a Hornady AND Sinclair Concentricity gauge which I do.

Just something to think about, but mostly IMHO, move on to another caliber that would give you better results in your grouping if you are interesting in planting one round over another like a 6mmbr and 6.5 does and is capabale of doing.

 

[nra-for-life]

thesnake,

the rounds i loaded were:

35 gr re15 with 50gr blitzkings (shot the best)
34.5 gr re15 with 53gr smk (close second best groups)
34 gr of varget with 40 gr nosler bt varmint (worst groups, approx 1.5" to 2" ave)
38 gr of h380 with 52 gr. amax

i didnt sort any of the bullets by weight which i will try nest time. i shot all the loads listed above but they were seperated by case runout and case wieght....as logic would dictate the cases with less runout shot better...duh

yes the brass is all once fired hornady brass. it is not high quality stuff i dont think, but it is fine for now and learning. so the rifle is a stock savage axis with a trigger job and an old elite 4200 bushy 6x24 i had laying around. with the factory ammo (hornady 50 gr. v max) i can shoot 1" to1 1/4" all day....
if i could get this rifle shooting sub half inch at 100 id be thrilled to death maybe it is capable of that maybe not. hell maybe im not a good enough shooter, i dont know yet.


Elkbane,
yes i think i made a mistake by trying to shoot too many different loads, next time out im going to try to shoot just one load and only experiment with .4 grain powder charge increases. im with you on the lapua brass, that will be a purchase in the future after a few more outings and experimentation with the "junk" brass

Shynloco,
thanks for the response, i will look into the sinclair mandrel die...have you had any experience with the forster seater???? ill post a pic of the mark it leaves on the bullet. im not quite on your level shooting wise but i want to be. still taking all this in, and it is overwhelming, but yes i want to leave the world of factory crappy grouping rifles and get some real shooters. i understand that certain calibers lend themselves to this better than others. id like to do some custome builds down the road but for now im just trying to learn with this "junk" gun.



here is a pic of the mark left by the bullet seater on a seated bullet ...???i dont think this can be good

here is a pic of the best group i shot all day (middle group)

Thanks everyone for the responses thus far.

 

[TheSnake]

NRA,
Well I think your neck tension is pretty tight to leave that kind of mark no matter what seater die you are using.

I think a factory 22-250 is capable of shooting half MOA at 100 all day long if you do your part and load well. If my factory Weatherby Vanguard is not shooting half MOA, I am not doing my part. I would suggest a little more power on your scope. Hard to shoot small groups if you can't tell one shot from the next under your cross dot. As far as the Axis goes, got one for my son in a .243 and he shoots in the 5's most of the time with my reloads, 24 power scope, a solid bench and rest. From what I have read, you have a 50/50 chance of getting a Savage that will shoot well but since you have shot in the 3's already, I would think with the proper load, it should shoot well enough for what you are trying to do.

I say stick to one power and bullet and work it from there.

Best to you sir.

 

[K22]

80 rounds is a lot to shoot in one session and maintain focus on the fundamentals of good shooting technique.

The 22 250 is an over bored cartridge which will foul quickly. Should be cleaned every 20 to 30 rounds.

In testing, did you let the barrel cool between test shots?

Varget works best with 50 and 55 grain bullets in this caliber.

H380 is a powder literally tailored made for the 22 250.

Groups hovering around 1/2 moa is outstanding for a factory rifle. Of course we all want tighter but you could spent a lot of money and time trying to achieve it. Depending on your purpose, 1/2 moa will get the job done for hunting.

Good advice by others - especially limiting you're testing to specific powder / bullet combination each sesssion. Take your time and concentrate on you shooting technique. Don't over size the brass, this is a taper case and will stretch.

The 22 250 is an outstanding long range varmint cartridge. I really enjoy hunting with mine. Good luck.

 

[GrocMax]

IMO for that cartridge, worrying about .1-.2g is a waste of time, spend time with jump distance YOUR barrel and bullet like first, then refine the powder charge for desired speed and the nearest accuracy node.

Pretty much every 22-250 20"-28" barreled rifle ever made likes around 38g of H380 and pretty much any 50-55g slug (along with ~34g of 4895). Load up iterations of jump distance every 10 thou from just touching to about .050" off. Which one does it like? there will be one or two in that group of 6 distances that stand out. A LOT. Want more speed? Then load more powder. They tend to have accuracy nodes about 1g apart.

I'm going to bet about .030"-.040" (and any multiple of that as that throat gets chased down the bore) works pretty good.

I would also like to discourage a new 22-250 shooter from being a Speed Demon, you just waste cases and barrels, its sort of cool, but a waste in the long run. Yes you can get 50's close to 4000 FPS easy, but they shoot better and longer slowed down.

When you find the right jump distance for the slug and barrel your groups will close DRAMATICALLY regardless of what known, works good in a 22-250 powder is in it.

Among that list for 50-55g bullets is H380, 4895, 4064, RL15, Varget (I could never get Varget to shoot anywhere NEAR as good as 380, 4895, RL15 or 4064 but some swear by it), for 40g same plus RL10X and the faster stuff, for 60-64g RL19, Big Game, somewhere in that area.

You don't need anymore than .002"-.003" 'neck tension', measure the neck diameter of a loaded round, measure the neck diameter of a resized case, if they are more than .003" different, get a different die or a good bushing die. Once you find your neck size, if the expander has more than just a tiny bit of resistance on the downstroke, REMOVE IT! It is too large and is now resizing the neck larger than your neck bushing or die is sizing on the OD. Expanders work great for fixing dented mouths and necks for non-precision brass, or wildcat case forming, but one size does not fit all, if it drags on the way down, take it off.

Round Robin load dev-

DON'T shoot 3 or five of the exact same load consecutively, shoot one of each type at its own target one at a time, spread the statistical errors and shooter errors over ALL the groups. 3 shots is not enough to get a decent statistical sample, 5 is better, ten is better yet.

More than a few times that ten shots in a dime group DID NOT START AS THREE TOUCHING! It started as three in a small triangle, and the triangle got filled in. That particular load stayed pretty consistent over time, heat, change of positions. Then there was the two in the same hole with one off 1/4" group that you think you pulled the flyer, but when you shoot the other seven it opens up even more.

 

[BoydAllen]

What rifle? Scope? Has it been bedded? What sort of rest and bags? Over the years, I have seen greater difference in accuracy playing with seating depth than with small powder charge changes. On the round with the seater stem mark on the ogive, what was the diameter of the neck before and after seating the bullet? Pick one bullet, and powder. Do a one shot per load pressure test, starting below the middle manual load, and working up in increments of .4 grain, with FL sized brass, one shot per load, till you get pressure signs. I have found my best accuracy with bullets seated .006 to .010 longer than touch. This elevates pressure 5-6,000 PSI, so always start workups low enough to take this into account. Never seat into the rifling with a load that was worked up jumping, without dropping down in charge weight and working back up. Put something(s) down range so that you can attempt to shoot all shots in the same wind condition. Shoot all the shots at the same target, and plot the shots at the bench as you go. Somewhere in the sequence you should see a couple of shots that are closer together. Use something in the middle of those weights, to start experimenting with seating depth with two shot groups. If too shots are bad, a third won't fix the group. When you find a depth that looks promising Try three and then five shot groups. Clean every 25 rounds. Figure out how many shots it takes for a clean barrel to settle down, groups shot with less than that many shots down a barrel that has been cleaned should not be counted. If your scope has a parallax adjustment make sure that it is properly adjusted for zero parallax, don't just set it for the distance. The scales are generally not reliable. That should keep you busy for a while. It has been my experience that bedding is better attended to before spending much time working up loads.

 

[nra-for-life]

thanks for the help everyone...

by my measurements i have about .0045" to .0055" in neck tension. seems this is a bit on the high side which is probably causing the dents in the bullet. im going to do as advised and remove the expander ball and size the neck seperately.

hey groc, i will try this next set of loads like you said and make 10 thou adjustments to the seating depth and see where that gets me.


for the record i was shooting off of a portable shooting bench and sandbags. i just pet an order in for a lead sled fxc, hopefully that will help steady it up a little

 

[GrocMax]

Bags work fine, just try to be very consistent on technique when shooting for load dev, if you shoot off bags more or less free recoil, keep doing that, if you shoot with a tight shoulder hold, keep doing that, changing from free recoil to a tight shoulder hold and in between will make a big vertical spread.

 

[Shynloco]

nra,
Just a brief note on what you wrote about surface you are shooting off of - a portable shooting bench. That is not a good surface for testing ultimate accuracy of any rifle. Nice to have for load development for hunting, but just adds another "variable" you try to eliminate in accuracy shooting. Concrete shooting benches have been found to provvde the best stabliity for accuracy purposes which is why the serious competitiors shoot off of them. Even the wooden benches at some clubs don't cut the mustard. BTW, check your PM file.

 

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This thread is 10 years old, the OP you’re responding to hasn’t been back to the forum since 2014.


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[Dave M.]

hi everyone.

i loaded up some 80 rounds of 22-250 for the first time ever loading any cartridge and went out and shot them this weekend. Anyway I have a bunch of questions about loading. i was able to get some groups with some of the loads i made that averaged about a half to quarter moa better than the best factory loads ive tested, but i know there is plenty of accuracy left to be squeezed out yet. the best group of the day was a .301" clover leaf but the average of the day was more like 1" to 3/4" groups.

what graduations of grain increments do you usually increase in your cases for testing and trying to find that accurate blend of powder and bullet? ive seen some people on here are doing 1/10 of a grain increases which is probably overkill for me. the rifle i'm shooting is a stock savage and the scale weighing the charge is an rcbs chargemaster combo.

is it okay for the seating die to be leaving marks on the bullet from seating? i'm using the forster seating die with the mic and a co-ax press. seems to leave a mark or indention on the bullet after seating it which i cant imagine is going to help accuracy at all. thoughs anyone? is this normal?

what would be acceptable runout on the case necks? i sorted the brass between cases with under 2 thou runout and cases with over 2 thou runout.....the cases with over 2 thousanths runout seem to open up by at least an extra 1/4" i f not more... has anyone else here experienced similar results??? what is the best way to manage case neck runout...? is neck turning the only real option... i was prestty dissapointed that the forster full length sizer didnt give me more consistant results but i guess of the runout is caused by an inconsistant case neck width then there is not much that the die alone can do to fix that... thoughts???? my cases are all hornady (once fired by me).

how big of a factor will segregating bullets by weight be? I didnt do this on the first go around but i think i might give it a try on the next round of handloads...



thanks in advance for opinions and any advice.

.2 grains