I read in your posts that j b works well. my experience with it has been good as well. I keep on getting told that the product will cause damage to my barrel. To me this does not make sense because carbon deposits left in the barrel would be imbedded into the softer copper bullet, causing it to behave as an abrasive, which would ruin a barrel, no? Is there something else I should know about using this product?
j b paste
- Thread starter arpythehun
- Start date
jonbearman
I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
They are both relatively the same.It comes to brand chioce.I have used it since 1995 or so and have never had a problem with it.I only use it when my accuracy suffers and we are good to go. Some barrel makers caution its use and actually it voids the warranty which is non existent anyway.I would continue to use it when you think it is necessary and forget all the hype.
The Bore paste is a 'cleaner' (hence the 5-10 stroke limit according to the instructions) while the Bore Polish is just that - the final polish (finer at 40-60 strokes). One really feels the difference when running a patch through the bore after completion of each. If one uses both products every 500 rounds or so I feel it maintains a barrels accuracy as well as any.
I tend not to spend too much time at the muzzle (shortening my strokes so as not to over clean/wear the crown). I do work the throat/leade to polish the moonscape it turns in to.
Has any one a first hand opinion of the long term use of Tubb's Throat Maintenance system (as opposed to 'Final Finish)?
I tend not to spend too much time at the muzzle (shortening my strokes so as not to over clean/wear the crown). I do work the throat/leade to polish the moonscape it turns in to.
Has any one a first hand opinion of the long term use of Tubb's Throat Maintenance system (as opposed to 'Final Finish)?
Hello,
I would like to order iosso paste and give it a try but i'm not sure witch one to order. In midways book it said that gunbrite will remove powder foulings and this is what i'm trying to do the other iosso product said nothing about powder(iosso bore solvent) so witch one should I order?
I would like to order iosso paste and give it a try but i'm not sure witch one to order. In midways book it said that gunbrite will remove powder foulings and this is what i'm trying to do the other iosso product said nothing about powder(iosso bore solvent) so witch one should I order?
sevenfal said:
Just about any solvent will remove powder fouling, so use what you have on hand for that.
It's the CARBON that's very hard to remove and that's where EITHER Iosso OR JB Bore Cleaning Compound [not the polish] comes in. You can use both of those and get good results.
I prefer JB because I feel it's easier [for me] to remove it from the barrel, once I'm finished using it, than Iosso. But that's just my experience. Give them both a try.
arpythehun said:
Krieger Barrels Inc,: Q&A
Q: Will a paste-type bore cleaner such as J.B. hurt a barrel during cleaning?
A: No. There is nothing that we can find that shows that it will harm the barrel provided you use a rod guide and refrain from exiting the muzzle.
--------------------------------------
Instructions received from Krieger along with my Krieger barrel: Break-In and Cleaning, Under Cleaning:
"Abrasive cleaners work well. They do not damage the bore, they clean all types of fouling (copper, powder, lead, plastic), and they have the added advantage of of polishing the throat both in 'break in' and later on when the throat begins to roughen again from the rounds fired. One national champion we know polishes the throats on his rifles every several hundred rounds or so with diamond paste to extend their accuracy life."
BigBamBoo
Silver $$ Contributor
6
Main Message Board / Re: JB Bore Paste
« on: 06:32 AM, 02/18/11 »
Interesting...seems Krieger has changed their tune. Here is a list of some of the top barrel makers and shooters advice on JB from last year:
Chris Dichter, Owner, Pac-Nor Barreling
"My preference is cleaning every 20-30 rounds. We settled on the Witches' Brew from Dave Holland, which is 1200 micron-inch aluminum oxide in Kroil. It removes anything that isn't gun-barrel steel. It gets carbon and copper out very effectively. Be careful with JB and abrasives--A JB'd patch around a bristle brush can become a lap more than a cleaning agent."
John Krieger, Krieger Barrels
"I've been asked about the abrasive bore cleaners. My advice is to proceed with caution. Use JB sparingly. A JB-coated patch becomes more of a surface lap. I've seen people actually lap a taper in their bore using JB on a patch. You want to clean your barrel, not change its dimensions! I'd just put JB on a bristle brush if you feel compelled to use it."
Gary Schneider, Schneider Rifle Barrels
"For the carbon build-up in the throat area, I don't think you need to treat that differently than fouling elsewhere in the bore. I discourage the use of abrasives. JB is a 1200-grit lapping compound. When you use it aggressively, some of that black you see on the patch is barrel steel. JB and Rem-Clean can remove steel and, in my opinion, used to excess, these products will decrease the life of the barrel. Yes I know Tony Boyer uses lots of JB. But he keeps a large inventory of barrels and he has no compunction about wearing out a barrel. Most shooters demand longer barrel life and hence should avoid using abrasives."
Bill Shehane, Two-Time IBS 1000-Yard Shooter of the Year, Owner D&B Supply
"For normal cleaning I use regular Montana X-Treme liquid solvent, with Montana X-Treme Bore Creme every other match or so (100-150 rounds). I use 50 BMG for break-in or if I have a barrel that is giving a problem with copper fouling. (Using the 50 BMG during a break-in procedure, after 15-20 rounds the new barrel is ready to go.) I used to use JB pretty religiously every 100-150 rounds. Now I use the MT X-Treme bore cream in a syringe and it works just as well as the JB and it's not as abrasive. If you use it in the throat area every 100-150 rounds I find you can keep the carbon build-up under control."
Michelle Sutton, Co-Owner, Hart Rifle Barrels
"I've also personally witnessed the damage that can be done with over-aggressive cleaning. I had one barrel that I cleaned using Rem-Clean on a patch over a brass brush. (Rem-Clean is an abrasive similar to JB.) I made 10 round-trips through the bore, running the brush just a bit past the muzzle on each cycle. Then I went out and shot the gun. The groups were terrible and the last two inches of the barrel was packed with copper. I inspected what had been a nice shiny, sharp crown and it looked like it had been bead-blasted. I then measured the bore diameter at the crown and found that the groove dimension had increased .0002" (two ten-thousandths). I ended up cutting a half-inch off the barrel and recrowning it, but the barrel still shot very poorly. It basically had been ruined for competitive purposes.
Chris Dichter has observed that JB on a patch can work like a lap. I personally saw how Rem-Clean on a patch can behave similarly."
Main Message Board / Re: JB Bore Paste
« on: 06:32 AM, 02/18/11 »
Interesting...seems Krieger has changed their tune. Here is a list of some of the top barrel makers and shooters advice on JB from last year:
Chris Dichter, Owner, Pac-Nor Barreling
"My preference is cleaning every 20-30 rounds. We settled on the Witches' Brew from Dave Holland, which is 1200 micron-inch aluminum oxide in Kroil. It removes anything that isn't gun-barrel steel. It gets carbon and copper out very effectively. Be careful with JB and abrasives--A JB'd patch around a bristle brush can become a lap more than a cleaning agent."
John Krieger, Krieger Barrels
"I've been asked about the abrasive bore cleaners. My advice is to proceed with caution. Use JB sparingly. A JB-coated patch becomes more of a surface lap. I've seen people actually lap a taper in their bore using JB on a patch. You want to clean your barrel, not change its dimensions! I'd just put JB on a bristle brush if you feel compelled to use it."
Gary Schneider, Schneider Rifle Barrels
"For the carbon build-up in the throat area, I don't think you need to treat that differently than fouling elsewhere in the bore. I discourage the use of abrasives. JB is a 1200-grit lapping compound. When you use it aggressively, some of that black you see on the patch is barrel steel. JB and Rem-Clean can remove steel and, in my opinion, used to excess, these products will decrease the life of the barrel. Yes I know Tony Boyer uses lots of JB. But he keeps a large inventory of barrels and he has no compunction about wearing out a barrel. Most shooters demand longer barrel life and hence should avoid using abrasives."
Bill Shehane, Two-Time IBS 1000-Yard Shooter of the Year, Owner D&B Supply
"For normal cleaning I use regular Montana X-Treme liquid solvent, with Montana X-Treme Bore Creme every other match or so (100-150 rounds). I use 50 BMG for break-in or if I have a barrel that is giving a problem with copper fouling. (Using the 50 BMG during a break-in procedure, after 15-20 rounds the new barrel is ready to go.) I used to use JB pretty religiously every 100-150 rounds. Now I use the MT X-Treme bore cream in a syringe and it works just as well as the JB and it's not as abrasive. If you use it in the throat area every 100-150 rounds I find you can keep the carbon build-up under control."
Michelle Sutton, Co-Owner, Hart Rifle Barrels
"I've also personally witnessed the damage that can be done with over-aggressive cleaning. I had one barrel that I cleaned using Rem-Clean on a patch over a brass brush. (Rem-Clean is an abrasive similar to JB.) I made 10 round-trips through the bore, running the brush just a bit past the muzzle on each cycle. Then I went out and shot the gun. The groups were terrible and the last two inches of the barrel was packed with copper. I inspected what had been a nice shiny, sharp crown and it looked like it had been bead-blasted. I then measured the bore diameter at the crown and found that the groove dimension had increased .0002" (two ten-thousandths). I ended up cutting a half-inch off the barrel and recrowning it, but the barrel still shot very poorly. It basically had been ruined for competitive purposes.
Chris Dichter has observed that JB on a patch can work like a lap. I personally saw how Rem-Clean on a patch can behave similarly."
Forum Boss
Administrator
BigBamBoo said:
---
Krieger has not "changed its tune". The above statement was from an interview I did with John Krieger, the man who owns the company. The previously posted statement is something somebody else at Krieger created that has been posted on the website for years.
My other comment is be careful with that Witches brew stuff from Holland. Yes it works but as Dichter says, it almost serves as a surface lap.
My caution in all this is:
Most barrels do NOT have to be cleaned down to bare steel to be accurate.
When you DO clean, use the least-invasive method that gets you where you need to be.
Before you set-up a regimen to clean your gun every X rounds, actually field test (Like the Myth Busters would) to see how many rounds you can shoot before the accuracy actually goes off. You may be surprised.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I can say, with some authority, that powder selection makes a big difference in this whole carbon thing. I don't use abrasives in my 6PPC barrels, that mostly see 133. When shooters discuss Mr. Boyer's use of abrasives, they should understand that he has a long history of using one particular lot of 8208, commonly referred to as T powder. In my limited experience, 8208 is a whole other animal as far as bore fouling is concerned...and yet, overlooking this important detail, many shooters, who use 133 took up abrasive cleaning, even though my experience (verified with a bore scope) tells me that it is not needed.
One more important detail....making a bore too smooth can cause jacket fouling. You might want to keep this in mind before you start polishing.
One more important detail....making a bore too smooth can cause jacket fouling. You might want to keep this in mind before you start polishing.
I am certainly not trying to contradict any of the learned and respected folks quoted above, but I think there is some heresy and old wives tales included in some of the information.
J-B bore cleaner, the one in a white jar with blue writing, is an excellent product. One would have to work real hard to damage the bore of a barrel with a paste with a small amount of 1200 grit compound in it. Rub some J-Bs between thumb and finger and it turns into a harmless liquid without enough grit to shine a penny. A person who would stroke anything back and forth through his barrel for 20-40 strokes should have his head examined. A well-known gunsmith once told me that more people wear out a barrel brushing it than they do shooting it. Bronze brushes have ruined a thousand times more barrels than J-Bs could ever hope to. Some of those chemicals marketed as bore cleaners are needless health hazards that should only be used outdoors.
Over the last 12 years I have fired over 12,000 rounds of handloads through a variety of target/varmint rifles in .223, 6 BR, 30 BR, .308, 22 BR and .223 AI. I have a shelf full of the chemical junk I've bought because so-and-so recommended it. Once I tried Kroil and J-B, I've used nothing else. Simply a patch well soaked in Kroil, followed by a patch with J-Bs rubbed into it and short-stroked once down the barrel, another patch with Kroil and two dry patches have cleaned any and everything that has ever been in a barrel. Two of the 6 BR barrels had over 2,800 rounds through them and were retired simply because I could no longer seat to the lands and they were 1:14 twist and wouldn't shoot the longer heavier bullets. The .223 AI has 2,700 rounds through it and will group 1/2" at 200 yards with a couple of different loads. All have been cleaned after every use with Kroil and J-Bs.
Compared to the friction and abrasiveness of a single bullet being shoved down your barrel by 60,000 or so pounds of pressure at temperatures that would vaporize almost anything, a cleaning with Kroil and J-Bs is a sweet caress.
J-B bore cleaner, the one in a white jar with blue writing, is an excellent product. One would have to work real hard to damage the bore of a barrel with a paste with a small amount of 1200 grit compound in it. Rub some J-Bs between thumb and finger and it turns into a harmless liquid without enough grit to shine a penny. A person who would stroke anything back and forth through his barrel for 20-40 strokes should have his head examined. A well-known gunsmith once told me that more people wear out a barrel brushing it than they do shooting it. Bronze brushes have ruined a thousand times more barrels than J-Bs could ever hope to. Some of those chemicals marketed as bore cleaners are needless health hazards that should only be used outdoors.
Over the last 12 years I have fired over 12,000 rounds of handloads through a variety of target/varmint rifles in .223, 6 BR, 30 BR, .308, 22 BR and .223 AI. I have a shelf full of the chemical junk I've bought because so-and-so recommended it. Once I tried Kroil and J-B, I've used nothing else. Simply a patch well soaked in Kroil, followed by a patch with J-Bs rubbed into it and short-stroked once down the barrel, another patch with Kroil and two dry patches have cleaned any and everything that has ever been in a barrel. Two of the 6 BR barrels had over 2,800 rounds through them and were retired simply because I could no longer seat to the lands and they were 1:14 twist and wouldn't shoot the longer heavier bullets. The .223 AI has 2,700 rounds through it and will group 1/2" at 200 yards with a couple of different loads. All have been cleaned after every use with Kroil and J-Bs.
Compared to the friction and abrasiveness of a single bullet being shoved down your barrel by 60,000 or so pounds of pressure at temperatures that would vaporize almost anything, a cleaning with Kroil and J-Bs is a sweet caress.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Reed,
I think that what you do is well thought out and proven. Your round count per barrel information is particularly interesting. What powders do you commonly use? Unfortunately many who clean their barrels have not had someone teach them the proper way to do it. I am sure that you are well aware of this. Your information as to your actual procedure should help many to get their barrels clean without harming them. In addition to what you have written, let me suggest to readers that they buy the best bore guide that they can find, slow their rod strokes down for better control, and pay more than the usual attention to alignment of the rod to the bore. I think that the reason that barrel manufacturers have taken such exception to the use of abrasives is that they are well aware of how sloppy some shooters are when cleaning, and their tendency to think that if a little of something is good, that a lot is better. My PPC fire forming barrel still shoots groups in the 2s, but it has been retired from regular use because of "alligatoring" in its throat, that causes it to foul out more rapidly than I want to put up with. It was brushed a moderate amount throughout its life, and I never saw any adverse effects. Of course I only brush as much as I need to to clean the barrel, and not every time that I clean.
Boyd
I think that what you do is well thought out and proven. Your round count per barrel information is particularly interesting. What powders do you commonly use? Unfortunately many who clean their barrels have not had someone teach them the proper way to do it. I am sure that you are well aware of this. Your information as to your actual procedure should help many to get their barrels clean without harming them. In addition to what you have written, let me suggest to readers that they buy the best bore guide that they can find, slow their rod strokes down for better control, and pay more than the usual attention to alignment of the rod to the bore. I think that the reason that barrel manufacturers have taken such exception to the use of abrasives is that they are well aware of how sloppy some shooters are when cleaning, and their tendency to think that if a little of something is good, that a lot is better. My PPC fire forming barrel still shoots groups in the 2s, but it has been retired from regular use because of "alligatoring" in its throat, that causes it to foul out more rapidly than I want to put up with. It was brushed a moderate amount throughout its life, and I never saw any adverse effects. Of course I only brush as much as I need to to clean the barrel, and not every time that I clean.
Boyd
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Forum Boss said:
BoydAllen said:
ReedG said:
I agree with the above statements and find them to be my findings as well.BoydAllen said:
making a bore too smooth can cause jacket fouling. You might want to keep this in mind before you start polishing, this quote from Boyds fist post hit home as several years ago I had a beautiful shooting .243 Win, would hold well under 1/2" with 65 grain v-max bullets, wonderful coyote load and 1/2"-5/8" with 100 grain Nosler Partitions the real beauty was you couls shoot a 65 grainer followed by a 100 grainer and repeat several times and keep it around 1",...POI was the same, you don't often find this so it obviously was a favored rifle of mine as I am a cattle rancher and hunter and I packed several of each on the butt stock and no matter the animal I had a accurate load for it. Well I couldn't leave well enough alone, it copper fouled terribly it took 1/2 the day of scrubbing to get it out, it still shot fine it just bugged me it was in there and wouldn't come out, so a self proclaimed gunsmith friend of mine told me to lapp the barrel with JB paste he said it couldn't hurt it :
he made me some lead lapping jags out of old cleaning brushes, I impregnated them with JB paste and started lapping until my arms almost fell off, then finished up with the JB polish paste again until I thought my arms would fall off, no bore guide, no bore scope, and the attitude more is better, long story short the barrel really copper fouled after that and barrel life greatly shortened, I ended up replaceing the factory barrel but of course it won't shoot both loads for me as most won't. Moral of the story is if you don't know or are not sure STOP!! and do what arpythehun has done and ask, you may get many different answers as he has gotten but at least he can weigh them out and come up with a pretty satisfactory answer from others experiences. I personally like JB paste when my barrel calls for it and is used correctly and is best used in conjunction with a bore scope IMO.Wayne.
Hi Frank:
I do not use any soak time other than the minute or so it takes to get a patch and rub some J-Bs on it.
One caveat to my system (and I almost hate to introduce this into the discussion) is that I shoot only t-d coated bullets. I have no idea what t-d does or doesn't do to the fouling/cleaning process.
Let me know if you try the Kroil/J-Bs and what you think.
I do not use any soak time other than the minute or so it takes to get a patch and rub some J-Bs on it.
One caveat to my system (and I almost hate to introduce this into the discussion) is that I shoot only t-d coated bullets. I have no idea what t-d does or doesn't do to the fouling/cleaning process.
Let me know if you try the Kroil/J-Bs and what you think.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks for the update. I should add that although I brush (less than in the past) and have always shot 133, I have never seen any evidence of powder fouling or carbon, using a bore scope, after a complete cleaning with BBS, patches and a bronze brush. I have noticed that abrasives seem to require more shooting in after their use, but that may be due to my using them more aggressively than Reed on barrels in other calibers, in which I used powders that were not as clean, and, in some cases, bores that were not as smooth. One thing is for sure, Tony's barrel budget is many times larger than mine, and his expected barrel life much shorter. I guess that you can't run with the big dogs any other way. ;D The other thing that I find interesting is that Reed uses t-d. Although I gave up moly, I had heard good reports on t-d, and never any bad ones. The reason that I have not retried coated bullets is that I have a couple of 6PPC barrels that require a very full case of 133 to do their best work, and bullet coatings usually require more powder to get the same pressure/velocity. I have an "oddball" powder that seems to shoot well, that is a tad faster, leaving more room in the case, perhaps I will switch powders for those barrels and try some tungsten disulphide or HBN on a few bullets.
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