Is there any hope for this load?

[deadlyswift]

Finally got my Savage 10FCP in .308 back from the gunsmith, and I am in the first stages of load developement. The rifle is all factory. It went to the smith to be pillared and glass bedded. Other than that. It is all factory. This target was shot at 300yrds. The one flyer that went right I really think it was me but, the barrel still only has 153rnds down the tube. Other than the one flyer I see 2 shots high close together and 2 shots low close together. Looking at the target it seems that ES is the problem? I haven't chronoed this load so I don't know the vol. or the ES of the load. I will if I need to or think this load is worth future testing? I will list the load below. .

1. Lapua 1 fired brass. formed to this rifle's chamber.
2. brass blown out to .342 springing back .341, neck sized down to .337
3. uniformed pirmer pocket.
4. trimed to 2.005 length.
5. CCI BR2 primer.
6. 45gr. of varget
7. 175gr. Berger vld match
8. Bullet seated just touching lands
9. also all brass was wieght sorted from 174.0 to 174.9

I know this target looks bad! I'm wondering if I can get the ES under contorl and bring the lower 2 shots up with the higher 2 shots maybe I'll have something? My question is what do I change to get ES under contorl? I was thinking of jamming the bergers .010 and .005 with this charge, or what? Maybe going to 45.2gr or 44.8gr? I am looking for the top end of vol. accuracy node here. Looking to shoot this rifle at 600 to 1000yrds. So if I'm shooting at 1000yrds I will need the most vol. that I can get with the heavy 175s. So far I have done pressure test up to 46 gr. of varget with no signs of problems. This was done with air temps at 62 degrees. Is there any hope on this or not? Laurie, Fdshuster chime in here!! You both know I trust your adivice! What should I do?
Thanks guys
Mark

 

[jo191145]

Well you might not trust me but heres what I would do ;D
Jam those bullets and load up an Audette ladder test.
Rule 1 Ballistically speaking vertical usually means too light a load or bullet needs to be seated further out or both. Vertical can be caused by many things unrelated to the particular load tho.
An Audette loaded up to 46.5gns or thereabouts will tell you whats happening as far as powder charge. You can always stop if pressure is present
Look at Hodgens data for Varget and 175gn. Notice its a listed as a compressed charge but the pressure is real low. To a competitor that means Hodgen just was'nt trying hard enough. Some shooters have opined that Hodgen will call a max charge when they're test barrel starts grouping nice. Just hearsay and conjecture on my part but if theres any validity to it that does'nt mean you need to stop there.
Hodgen data is usually pretty good stuff. Can't deny that.

Without a chrono theres only one way to find out if ES is your problem. Move into 100 yds. If theres no vertical proponent to your group at 100 than ES is indeed the culprit.

May sound crazy but I have a lot of BR2's that throw vertical into every load ever developed with them. The chrono says it should'nt be. I'm saving them for the day I find a load thats fraught with horizontal dispersion using a different primer. ;D

 

[6BRinNZ]

HI Mark,

I can't offer advise, but I can say I have struck the same thing, with two shots touching seperated by vertical. This is on a factory rifle (Howa) but an ultra match barrel. (6BR 26" 1-8 twist)

My loads vary up to 20fps, however with the Bergers 88grns, I can reasonably consistently get 3 shots touching at 200yrds, where as 75grn V-max with the same 20fps variance will shoot as you have described or simply shoot a string with up to 1" vertical at 200yrds.

I have varied seating depth and increased powder load however I have found that when I think I may have it sorted, going back to the range the following week vertical is back in (typically around 1" @ 200yrds). Increasing powder load seemed to show the most promise but I started blowing primers before I got to what I think is really needed.

So my conclusion so far, is with this type of grouping, I can't get consistency, from one day to the next, but without a bushed bolt face I can't reach the velocity needed to remove the vertical.

So I am back to the drawing board for V-maxes.

I am keen to see how you get on as you may provide some answers for me

Wayne

 

[Erik Cortina]

DSwift, I wouldn't even take that load hog hunting! ;D

Like Jo191145 said, you need to do a ladder test, it will outline where your accuracy node is or at least get you very close.

6BRinNZ, try lighter neck tension. It will give you more consistency.

Hope that helps guys.

-Erik

 

[deadlyswift]

Thanks guy's. I'm hoping to be able to shoot this weekend and try some things. I'm definitely going to jam the bullets. I'll also start bumping the charge up. The weather doesn't look so promising for the chronograph tho. Rain today, tomorrow, and cloudy Sunday. We all know how the wind likes to blow the day after it rains so things might have to wait untill conditions are better. I will post more results once I am able to get in some more testing. I for sure have got to do some studying on the ladder testing. I hear and read people talking about it. I some what understand the concept, but need to sit down and get it figured out. I think it is definitely worth the time to read up on especially on a rainy day.

6brinz I hope you get the 6br worked out. Currently I am waiting on parts for my 6br build. I have a new Savage target action, Shehane MBR Tolley stock, and my reamer from PT&G should be here in a cpl of days. They charged my account Monday. I'm still waiting on my Broughton 5c barrel. I ordered it 5 weeks ago. So hopefuly I'll only have 4 to 5 more weeks to wait.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Thanks Mark,

Picking up on Eriks comments, I had reduced neck tension as part of this process. I went from a loaded round of .271+ .268 bush to a .270 bush. It didn't help my vertical much, but the main reason I did is with approx 3" neck tension I was having a lot of trouble with seating depth being inconsistent. I have this in another post. Basically my seating depth would vary by approx 6", going to the .270 bush removed this problem.

So maybe check seating depth as you go as the rounds that pop out might be due to that particular rounds seating depth being out of "tolerance".

 

[Erik Cortina]

6BRinNZ, try lighter neck tension. It will give you more consistency.
-Erik

Thanks Mark,

Picking up on Eriks comments, I had reduced neck tension as part of this process. I went from a loaded round of .271+ .268 bush to a .270 bush. It didn't help my vertical much, but the main reason I did is with approx 3" neck tension I was having a lot of trouble with seating depth being inconsistent. I have this in another post. Basically my seating depth would vary by approx 6", going to the .270 bush removed this problem.

Well, like I said, you got more consistency, but still have vertical. I would go after powder charge next!

-Erik

 

[ranger0787]

A wise High Master shooter told me that there is a great accuracy node upwards of 2750'/second. I am currently shooting a Rem #700, with factory barrel bedded in an Accuracy International Chassis System stock that weighs 18-lbs. Sitting on top is a Nightforce NXS 12-42x56 power scope chosen specifically to hit at 1000 yards. Several times a year, I travel to Manatee Gun Club to use their 1000-yd range...It's the closest to me from South Florida. I also have a 20 MOA angled base mount with a .020 shim under the rear scope ring. My 100-yd zero is dead bottom of the erector tube. Exactly 38 MOA is my 1000 yd zero. My chosen load is 46.0gr. of varget with Lapua previously-fired brass & 175gr. Sierra Matchkings seated @ .020 from the lands using a Hornady length comparator. Primers are CCI-BR2, tried CCI-250, with no appreciable difference in muzzle velocity. Over my CED M2 chronograph, this load is giving me consistent 2750+ fps velocities. I have been also plagued by flyers and not so tight groups. I think a new barrel is in order as I have @ 2700 rounds through it & my dad, FDShuster said that he saw some firecracking in the throat area when he last looked in the barrel @ a month ago. Also to note, the rifle was sent to GA Precision in Missouri right after purchase to be "Balanced & Bluprinted". Don't know if this helps any...
Doug

 

[ranger0787]

...Another thought...Why not try the high BC 155gr. SMKBTHP's. They fly very well to 1000-yds. I've used them along with the 175's out to 1000-yds in my .308
My $.02

 

[Forum Boss]

HI Mark,

I can't offer advise, but I can say I have struck the same thing, with two shots touching seperated by vertical. This is on a factory rifle (Howa) but an ultra match barrel. (6BR 26" 1-8 twist)

My loads vary up to 20fps, however with the Bergers 88grns, I can reasonably consistently get 3 shots touching at 200yrds, where as 75grn V-max with the same 20fps variance will shoot as you have described or simply shoot a string with up to 1" vertical at 200yrds.

I have varied seating depth and increased powder load however I have found that when I think I may have it sorted, going back to the range the following week vertical is back in (typically around 1" @ 200yrds). Increasing powder load seemed to show the most promise but I started blowing primers before I got to what I think is really needed.

My 6BR can shoot almost any good bullet in mid-threes or less in good conditions at 100 yards. With the 75gr Vmax I was getting 6s and 7s. I then switched to Berger 80s, and the gun shot in the high ones. Puzzled, I started measuring the VMaxs (both 75s and the 87s which also shot poorly). I saw variations in bearing surface up to 0.025 and variations in bullet diameter up to .0006 (six ten thousanths). That was the answer to that story.

Sometimes bullets don't shoot because, simply, they aren't consistent dimensionally. Don't beat yourself up trying to force certain bullets to perform when they can't.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Thanks for the reply, it is good to know some numbers. I won't change projectiles due to the intended purpose but (having said that I am trying 105 A-maxes for reaching out ...varminting 400+), but maybe I will just invest in a bullet comparator to eliminate some of the variance, I have been toying with this for a while.

 

[deadlyswift]

I must appoligize for not posting back on this thread with my results. Wow I started this back in March. I had forgoten all about this topic. I over came a few big learning curves this summer!

X3M Hunter & Jo191145 Both of you where right! I do remember after both of yall's advice. I done the research needed to learn how to shoot a ladder test. So I loaded up and done my ladder test. As well I jammed the 175gr. berger's .010 in to the lands. Now when I try to work up loads for any bullet in any rifle. A ladder is exactly what I do! This particular rifle is a Savage 10Fcp. with a 1in10 twist. When I started this topic the barrel had 153 rounds down the barrel it now has 634 rounds down the tube. Now It hasn't took that many rounds to get the barrel to shoot. I have been doing a lot of shooting this summer. I now can hold .5 moa out to 400yrds with this gun. Not every single time, but more than not. In other words it shoots .5 moa consistent enough to say it holds .5moa at 400yrds Some groups are going under .5 moa at 200 and 300yrds but not often enough to say it shoots sub .5moa. Something else that I have learned this summer is that a lot of my bad groups came from the nut behind the butt. I have Improved many of my techniques to shooting. As to my flyer's, like in the target posted. Those flyer's I believe is do to a poor set up as to my front rest. It is one of the old hoppes orange rest with just a suede leather front bag full of bb's. So the results where my forend of the stock isn't properly fitted to my front bag. I believe due to this set up, the stock rolls in the front bag under recoil, or when pulling the 1 1/2 # tigger. I am able and did change my hold on the rifle to best fix this but it still happens. Just this Wed. my new Gen. II AP sinclair front rest came to my door from santa in the big brown truck. I had hoped to have gotten this rest sooner, but I put a hawkeye bore scope at the top of my list for tools that I want or need. So a new rest got post poned. I'm hoping to see a difference in my ablity to control the stock from rolling in the bags with my new front rest. I went with the AP sinclair rest because I shoot many different types of stocks. From spoter to 3in wide flat BR stock.

I WOULD LIKE TO JUST SAY THANKS TO ALL OF THE GUY'S THAT HAVE POSTED INFO ON ALL MY TOPIC'S WITH MANY OF THE QUESTIONS PROBABLY BEING VERY ELEMENTARY TO A LOT OF YALL. I HAVE IMPROVED MANY THINGS THIS SUMMER WITH MY SHOOTING. DUE TO ALOT OF GUY'S ON THIS SITE POSTING INFO AND GIVING ADIVCE!!!!
AGAIN THANKS!!!!!!!
MARK

 

[Erik Cortina]

I'm glad I was helpful... not always the case! ;D

 

[deadlyswift]

A wise High Master shooter told me that there is a great accuracy node upwards of 2750'/second. I am currently shooting a Rem #700, with factory barrel bedded in an Accuracy International Chassis System stock that weighs 18-lbs. Sitting on top is a Nightforce NXS 12-42x56 power scope chosen specifically to hit at 1000 yards. Several times a year, I travel to Manatee Gun Club to use their 1000-yd range...It's the closest to me from South Florida. I also have a 20 MOA angled base mount with a .020 shim under the rear scope ring. My 100-yd zero is dead bottom of the erector tube. Exactly 38 MOA is my 1000 yd zero. My chosen load is 46.0gr. of varget with Lapua previously-fired brass & 175gr. Sierra Matchkings seated @ .020 from the lands using a Hornady length comparator. Primers are CCI-BR2, tried CCI-250, with no appreciable difference in muzzle velocity. Over my CED M2 chronograph, this load is giving me consistent 2750+ fps velocities. I have been also plagued by flyers and not so tight groups. I think a new barrel is in order as I have @ 2700 rounds through it & my dad, FDShuster said that he saw some firecracking in the throat area when he last looked in the barrel @ a month ago. Also to note, the rifle was sent to GA Precision in Missouri right after purchase to be "Balanced & Bluprinted". Don't know if this helps any...
Doug

Doug,
I think you are exactly right with the 2750fps node. My load in this rifle is hitting an avg. of 2753fps. This is exactly where my ladder test landed me, and I found the node I was looking for. I have also found after my learning curve this summer. That 175smks will also shoot in this barrel. Again what I found was the 2750fps node. I can load the 175smks two different ways and they will shoot. I can seat them .030 off the lands or I can seat them .010 off the lands and up my charge .6grs. As I was sending rounds down range and over my chornograph here is what I noticed and lead me to believe what is happening. By changing seating depth's or uping my powder charge, how ever I load things once I start creating enough pressure to push the 175smks near and just above 2750 this is where groups are tightest. As posted above this node is producing .5moa out to 400 yrds. It will problaby produce it futher down range but my abilty to read wind and control recoil isn't there yet. I have a 6br that will be complete hopefuly soon. Had some other issues that had to be fixed with some smith work but thats another topic and issue that I have just put into the past. I had thought about putting a good Broughton 5c barrel on this rifle, but with the amount of rounds that you can get out of 308 I think I'm going to leave it as it is and burn this factory barrel up getting over more learning curves. I don't want to spend $368 for a Broughton blank and pay a smith to thread, chamber, and crown the barrel this putting me close to $600 into a barrel then shoot the thing up for learning curves. As well It has help my learn curving in loading skills and shooting skills a lot. So I want be burning up my Broughton 5c barrel on my 6br getting over my learning curves.
Thanks
Mark

 

[deadlyswift]

I'm glad I was helpful... not always the case! ;D

Erik,
I am also one of those guy's that reads a lot! I must conmend you on your F class record this year. Your abilties have been proven on paper and on this site. I enjoyed the article about your 6.5x47 L and RL 17. Way to go man!!! ;D Two thumbs up!!

I also feel when guy's like u have record breaking targets under their belt. One should listen to what they have to say. You and other's haven't set or broke records because yall don't know what yall are talking about!! ;D
Mark

 

[Erik Cortina]

I'm glad I was helpful... not always the case! ;D

Erik,
I am also one of those guy's that reads a lot! I must conmend you on your F class record this year. Your abilties have been proven on paper and on this site. I enjoyed the article about your 6.5x47 L and RL 17. Way to go man!!! ;D Two thumbs up!!

I also feel when guy's like u have record breaking targets under their belt. One should listen to what they have to say. You and other's haven't set or broke records because yall don't know what yall are talking about!! ;D
Mark

Thank you!