I'm thinking to buy Savage target rifle, but I've heard that factory barrels are getting to much fouling and many people say that its actually good for accuracy, this is something new I always thought copper in any form shouldn't stay in the barrel, that copper buildup causing fliers, specially when barrel heats up. Now hearing copper is good makes no sense...
Is it true that Savage barrels shoot better when dirty?
- Thread starter LR_Shooter
- Start date
Is it true that Savage barrels shoot better when filthy?
I consider fouling in any form be filthy, I like my barrels squeaky clean, so when I run patch with KG-3 before shooting my rifles it makes that squeaky sound. If I notice anything red in the barrel in the form of copper I'll use KG-12 until its all gone... Yeah clean freak I guess... So if I get target rifle from savage I'll become filthy pig?
I consider fouling in any form be filthy, I like my barrels squeaky clean, so when I run patch with KG-3 before shooting my rifles it makes that squeaky sound. If I notice anything red in the barrel in the form of copper I'll use KG-12 until its all gone... Yeah clean freak I guess... So if I get target rifle from savage I'll become filthy pig?
Is it true that Savage barrels shoot better when filthy?
I'm not sure what caliber those people are shooting, as far as stock barrels from Savage, but my 22-250 shoots best a "little bit" fouled. After that its ok for a hot second and accuracy falls off until I clean it again. Thats just my experience with this one barrel though. It does copper quickly and is a beast to clean up. No where near as easy as a nice handlapped barrel.
Mike
I'm not sure what caliber those people are shooting, as far as stock barrels from Savage, but my 22-250 shoots best a "little bit" fouled. After that its ok for a hot second and accuracy falls off until I clean it again. Thats just my experience with this one barrel though. It does copper quickly and is a beast to clean up. No where near as easy as a nice handlapped barrel.
Mike
Is it true that Savage barrels shoot better when filthy?
I also try to keep them as clean as reasonably possible, and verify how clean with my Hawkeye borescope. But, I have an older Remington 700BDL, all factory chambered in 222, and it has one of the ugliest bores I've ever looked at. I knew the condition of the bore when I bought the rifle, but did not care, since I planned on re-barreling anyway. Starting out with a "clean" bore, the rifle will hold 1/2 moa with 5 shot groups at 200 yds., and from there on, all the way up to 80 rds. maximum (the longest I've ever gone without cleaning), the 5 shot groups only get smaller. By the time I'd ready to quit 5 shot groups at 200 will include many shots in one hole, and the groups are averaging close to 1/4 moa. The dirtier the barrel gets, the better it shoots. Cleaning required is just normal soaking & brushing using Butch's, and is not that much more effort than my match barrels. I have no intention of re-barreling. Bottom line: all barrels are different. With a factory barrel it's all a crap shoot. You may get a good one or one that is outright junk!
I also try to keep them as clean as reasonably possible, and verify how clean with my Hawkeye borescope. But, I have an older Remington 700BDL, all factory chambered in 222, and it has one of the ugliest bores I've ever looked at. I knew the condition of the bore when I bought the rifle, but did not care, since I planned on re-barreling anyway. Starting out with a "clean" bore, the rifle will hold 1/2 moa with 5 shot groups at 200 yds., and from there on, all the way up to 80 rds. maximum (the longest I've ever gone without cleaning), the 5 shot groups only get smaller. By the time I'd ready to quit 5 shot groups at 200 will include many shots in one hole, and the groups are averaging close to 1/4 moa. The dirtier the barrel gets, the better it shoots. Cleaning required is just normal soaking & brushing using Butch's, and is not that much more effort than my match barrels. I have no intention of re-barreling. Bottom line: all barrels are different. With a factory barrel it's all a crap shoot. You may get a good one or one that is outright junk!
Is it true that Savage barrels shoot better when filthy?
So the bottom line, if I get one it might be a shooter or might not and if its not I should have backup plan to rebarrel it with something like Hart, Shilen etc... This makes me think that maybe I should just get Savage target action and build on top of it. I just don't like unexpected surprises.
So the bottom line, if I get one it might be a shooter or might not and if its not I should have backup plan to rebarrel it with something like Hart, Shilen etc... This makes me think that maybe I should just get Savage target action and build on top of it. I just don't like unexpected surprises.
Is it true that Savage barrels shoot better when filthy?
The Savage Target barrels are buttoned but not lapped. That I can tell anyway. That leaves a little tool chatter along the bore. Wilsons look the same. They have a reputation for shooting quite well and my Wilsons all have been accptable. They may foul abit, but the chatter is light and seems to smooth out after 500rds or so.
I have always cleaned my Wilsons back to steel after each session for several interations and then cleaned like normal match barrels. Having a shiny bore at the begining of a session really means nothing IHO. That said, I'm not a benchrester and I know they are heavy cleaners.
The Savage Target barrels are buttoned but not lapped. That I can tell anyway. That leaves a little tool chatter along the bore. Wilsons look the same. They have a reputation for shooting quite well and my Wilsons all have been accptable. They may foul abit, but the chatter is light and seems to smooth out after 500rds or so.
I have always cleaned my Wilsons back to steel after each session for several interations and then cleaned like normal match barrels. Having a shiny bore at the begining of a session really means nothing IHO. That said, I'm not a benchrester and I know they are heavy cleaners.
Is it true that Savage barrels shoot better when filthy?
It has been my experince that every factory Savage barrel I have owned shots better when fouled or dirty. (Not "Filthy") Most Savage barrels group there best when they have at least 20 rounds down the barrel. When you clean them the groups will open up untill you get about 20 rounds down the tube. When shooting a match with a Savage barrel I do not clean them between rounds, I wil clean then after the macth is over. All Savage barrels are made by Savage and are button rifled. If you do your part the gun should shoot 1/2 MOA or better.
It has been my experince that every factory Savage barrel I have owned shots better when fouled or dirty. (Not "Filthy") Most Savage barrels group there best when they have at least 20 rounds down the barrel. When you clean them the groups will open up untill you get about 20 rounds down the tube. When shooting a match with a Savage barrel I do not clean them between rounds, I wil clean then after the macth is over. All Savage barrels are made by Savage and are button rifled. If you do your part the gun should shoot 1/2 MOA or better.
Is it true that Savage barrels shoot better when filthy?
82boy, so when you shoot match with copper embedded, does you POI changes when barrel heats up?
82boy, so when you shoot match with copper embedded, does you POI changes when barrel heats up?
I see that "filthy" has some people feel offended towards my topic so I changed it to dirty. :
Let's be honest about things here. ALL barrels shoot better dirty. The difference is in how dirty. Even benchrest shooters fire a fouling shot or two before going for record. Now that might not be filthy dirty but it is still dirty and not clean. The amount of dirty needed to make a barrel honestly shoot a string (not a 3 shot group) will vary by each barrel as we all know that no two barrels are exactly alike. Hand lapped barrels tens to shoot good with fewer fouling shots than factory barrels but factory barrels are not cream-of-the-crop in most cases anyway. As for Savage factory barrels most will do better on the dirty (read that as well fouled) side but some will want to be clean so you are back to finding out what your barrel wants.
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
I shot a Savage FP10 when I started F-T/R, it shot great, if I sent 20 down the barrel before the match. I got burned once when I couldn't get to the range before a match and showed up with a clean barrel. I figure that unlimited sighters at 800 would be ok before I went for record. Wrong, it took five record 9's before I cleaned the rest.
Savage factory barrel would be good for 140 rounds or so before it needed a good cleaning. But, it took a week to get all the copper out, made my own pennys
Had it rebarreled and restocked, shooting WS2 coated 180 JLK's, last weekend, 4 sighters at 800, 3 were X's. Gun stayed true through the whole match. Nice and cleans really easily too.
Tony
Savage factory barrel would be good for 140 rounds or so before it needed a good cleaning. But, it took a week to get all the copper out, made my own pennys
Had it rebarreled and restocked, shooting WS2 coated 180 JLK's, last weekend, 4 sighters at 800, 3 were X's. Gun stayed true through the whole match. Nice and cleans really easily too.
Tony
I guess the only way to find out is to order one and try.
Searching more I came up with description why heavy fouling occur in factory barrels, it all comes out to chatter created when barrel is cut and the picture of lands and grooves http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/frwillia/6inchesfrommuzzle-2.jpg getting something like this will spell a disaster on the field.
Searching more I came up with description why heavy fouling occur in factory barrels, it all comes out to chatter created when barrel is cut and the picture of lands and grooves http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/frwillia/6inchesfrommuzzle-2.jpg getting something like this will spell a disaster on the field.
That's the chatter (from the button) I talking about. I've dealt with barrels that look like that and shoot just fine. They just need a little break in. If it's got to look perfect get a hand lapped barrel blank and have it fitted. There's lot of guys that will buy an unused Savage BUTTON barrel around here.
The best barrel in the world only puts them where you point them!!!
The best barrel in the world only puts them where you point them!!!
I have owned 6 Savage FP10s since 1985 & it does seem that after about 10 shots they tighten up on the targets.
One .223 fp10 varmint rig that I only put moly coated bullets through shoots pretty much the same until about 600 rounds then opens up a tad. It gets cleaned then.
Every FP10 barrel that I have scoped has the chatter in it as stated above from the rifling process.
Now a SS match McGowan on one of them even has chatter and it prints sub targets from a clean barrel.
One .223 fp10 varmint rig that I only put moly coated bullets through shoots pretty much the same until about 600 rounds then opens up a tad. It gets cleaned then.
Every FP10 barrel that I have scoped has the chatter in it as stated above from the rifling process.
Now a SS match McGowan on one of them even has chatter and it prints sub targets from a clean barrel.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Each barrel is an individual, with its own "preferences" Some will shoot better fouled, and others when clean. Testing is the only way to find out.
The marks that one sees in factory barrels are most likely from the reaming that is done after the hole is drilled. The very worst are there because the button did not come in contact with the tops of the lands.
Although Savage barrels are button rifled, they are not stress relieved after rifling, nor are they lapped. The lighter contour barrels may also be cold straightened, which can cause shots to walk as a barrel heats.
Some time ago, I met a fellow that had been trying for some time to get a stainless Ruger 77 in .270 to group better. He had done his best to do a careful barrel break in, and was carefully cleaning his barrel quite often after that. I suggested that he start a target, with his clean barrel, and keeping an eye on barrel heat, not clean but keep shooting. After about seven shots, the barrel started to group much better. Since this was a game hunting rifle, that would not see many shots in a typical season, I suggested that he hold off cleaning it till the end of the season, clean it well, and then dirty it up till it started to group at the beginning of the next season, as a part of verifying his scope setting, and preparing for the hunt. He left the range much happier than when he arrived. He had been struggling for some time, and was a careful shooter and reloader, he had just gotten some bad advice.
The marks that one sees in factory barrels are most likely from the reaming that is done after the hole is drilled. The very worst are there because the button did not come in contact with the tops of the lands.
Although Savage barrels are button rifled, they are not stress relieved after rifling, nor are they lapped. The lighter contour barrels may also be cold straightened, which can cause shots to walk as a barrel heats.
Some time ago, I met a fellow that had been trying for some time to get a stainless Ruger 77 in .270 to group better. He had done his best to do a careful barrel break in, and was carefully cleaning his barrel quite often after that. I suggested that he start a target, with his clean barrel, and keeping an eye on barrel heat, not clean but keep shooting. After about seven shots, the barrel started to group much better. Since this was a game hunting rifle, that would not see many shots in a typical season, I suggested that he hold off cleaning it till the end of the season, clean it well, and then dirty it up till it started to group at the beginning of the next season, as a part of verifying his scope setting, and preparing for the hunt. He left the range much happier than when he arrived. He had been struggling for some time, and was a careful shooter and reloader, he had just gotten some bad advice.
I have Rem 700 varmint barrel, I used to clean it after every 50 shots, then I decided not to clean copper just remove carbon, well next 50 shots I fired grouped about the same, but next 50 they were allover, so after I cleaned it groups return to normal, but that's Remington barrel.
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