Is it The Load, The Gun Or The SHOOTER?

[Alex Wheeler]

I preach about tune to anyone that will listen. Most of the time if your not doing well, your not tuned. The best equipment still needs to be tuned, no way around that work. Our club has a "club gun". Its a Br rifle that any new shooter can try the sport with. Its probably in 2nd place for LG aggs this year. Thats with 3 different, never shot a match before shooters behind it. It IS tuned well.

 

[1K6BRA]

After 45 years of different shooting disciplines mostly rifle,I have come to the conclusion that is it is usually just this nut behind my butt that is not tuned, for numerous reasons!

 

[Intheshop]

We got a big trad bow shoot coming up in a few days.....

One of my boys came home for mother's day last weekend with his bow. We're a full-on pro shop. I'm a 60 y.o. "ex construction worker"... he stood there and watched me do 15 minutes splitting wood with an 8# maul( camp fuel).... then shot bows.

Next... I left a splitting wedge down in the woods( no we weren't tossed)... so it was like,"let's run down the cpl hunert yds,grab the wedge,run back up... shoot bows"

Then,a vertical leep,say right around 30" up to our loading dock,flat footed.

This is one of my 4 grown boys.He's 30 sumthin y.o.Was a "decorated" NCAA first team all American.To say I left him for dead is an understatement. Just sayin,some of you all are underestimating what a good ole boy is capable of.Practice the worst possible conditions.Heck,anybody can shoot on a blue bird day.... whatcha "got" when the conditions turn ugly?

 

[ClassCat]

We got a big trad bow shoot coming up in a few days.....

One of my boys came home for mother's day last weekend with his bow. We're a full-on pro shop. I'm a 60 y.o. "ex construction worker"... he stood there and watched me do 15 minutes splitting wood with an 8# maul( camp fuel).... then shot bows.

Next... I left a splitting wedge down in the woods( no we weren't tossed)... so it was like,"let's run down the cpl hunert yds,grab the wedge,run back up... shoot bows"

Then,a vertical leep,say right around 30" up to our loading dock,flat footed.

This is one of my 4 grown boys.He's 30 sumthin y.o.Was a "decorated" NCAA first team all American.To say I left him for dead is an understatement. Just sayin,some of you all are underestimating what a good ole boy is capable of.Practice the worst possible conditions.Heck,anybody can shoot on a blue bird day.... whatcha "got" when the conditions turn ugly?

My Home range is Ben Avery. It is one of the MOST feared SRBR ranges in the country because of the fast changing conditions.
The Current SRBR World Champion Mike Conrey calls Texas home. One of the reasons He won was that a good day at his Home range is a 20MPH blow.That was the same conditions that he shot in the World Match.

 

[WillyTP]

Agree that tune is important, but what about it that makes it “click” is the debate.

Can safely rule out gun, seen too many try to buy wins with all the most expensive equipment to just loose to lesser components.

Definitely the shooter has the biggest impact, win lose or draw. A lot of times new shooters with great equipment will do well because they haven’t learned or developed bad habits yet.

I know I’m my own worst enemy, but I can accept it

 

[Intheshop]

Oh,and for the record,I shoot Bob Lee custom takedown longbows.Considering we engineer/build bows here,that ain't a small endorsement. I've shot them "all".Rob (Jr.) is on top of the situation.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Agree that tune is important, but what about it that makes it “click” is the debate.

Can safely rule out gun, seen too many try to buy wins with all the most expensive equipment to just loose to lesser components.

Definitely the shooter has the biggest impact, win lose or draw. A lot of times new shooters with great equipment will do well because they haven’t learned or developed bad habits yet.

I know I’m my own worst enemy, but I can accept it

This is far more common than you'd think!

 

[Intheshop]

Learn how to practice..... what works for your bud,can possibly be the exact opposite of what it's gonna take to get you on point.

Further,as a pro.... you need to learn how practice IS,different from shooting for the $$.

Edit;patience shows up once you learn how to distinguish between,practice and competition. Letting the game come to you,is about quality practice and the ability to,"hit the switch".But it ain't something you read about.... GO COMPETE.

 

[Intheshop]

There's nuthin better than a,come from behind victory.

If you've done everything "right",patience and all that it encompasses, you sail past the competition.... dang,it's sweet.

 

[dkhunt14]

I think it's mostly good barrels and bullets. A good barrel will make somebody look good and a bad barrel will make the nest look bad. Same thing with bullets.

Yes, loading, conditions and a few other things come into play. When you get that good barrel, you will know it. Matt

 

[Fotheringill]

in this endless quest for accuracy, the answer is practice?

Dusty- I agree, BUT there is a limit to where your equipment (rifle) will bring you. A $300 rifle is a $300 rifle. That rifle alone will have its limitations. Then there are the 20 or so variables, including wind, loading, chamfering, depth, bullets, primers, powder charge and the other 14 I did not mention that add to the mix.

The only thing someone can do is work on one of these variables at a time to identify if that one variable, when adjusted will lessen or solve a problem.

Just a rimfire example- I have an Anschutz 1913a 54 action rifle. Rifle is great. I have a 3 oz. trigger. I have found that how I pull that trigger (left, right, up or down) can easily throw a shot from the X to an outer 9 at fifty yards. Not to mention the best ammo and speed for that rifle. I can score anywhere from 248 down to 236 (out of 250) on a dead calm day just from the pull. Fewer variables, but variables nonetheless.

 

[rebel]

I have thought a bit about what to add to this thread, owning a shop and running a range means you listen to a lot of bullsh%t. Most folks shoot for fun, all want to be really good at it. As I said recently in Barts 600 yarder thread, it all depends on how big a pond your swimming in. Shooting "good" is relative. On this forum, your swimming in Lake Superior. From what I have seen, most folks are their own worst enemy because they absolutely refuse to admit that they have crappy habits. My weaknesses are things that some of you may take for granted. But I am not afraid to ask a question, knowing the field is 39000 strong means I expect to get a myriad of answers. That gives me a leg up on the guy that's to proud to ask for fear his "persona" may be damaged' or the guy that rips you for asking it.

I do agree equipment plays a part, reloading technique/components as well. Bottom line is, the weakest link is yourself. I had one customer who kept talking about shooting in our yearly match. He showed with no rifle, said it wasn't ready. Several fellow shooters offered him a rifle to shoot, which he refused. The next Saturday he was in the shop saying if he had as much $$$ in the rifle as the winner did, he'd be right up there in the top 5

At that level of competition, which reference wise is a smallish pond with a few big fish, expensive equipment doesn't hurt a thing. It may not be as big a help as he imagined though considering a factory rifle
( albeit expensive ones ) has taken 1st in the match before. If your wish to be a big fish overruns your desire to learn - you've already beaten yourself.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Regular practice is always a good idea, but a poorly tuned load or mediocre wind reading skills can render practice almost useless. You'll never be 100% sure whether poor performance was you, the load, difficult conditions, or some combination of all three. By extension, a shooter with poor marksmanship skills will generally find it difficult, if not impossible, to ever develop a well-tuned load, because they simply can't shoot groups with sufficient consistency to discern between one loading and another. Thus, it can often be a catch-22 situation. You need a decent load to really improve your marksmanship, but poor marksmanship makes it difficult to tune a decent load.

For these reasons, I've always felt it was of benefit to carry out preliminary load development at 100 yd (Note - this is for F-Class, not BR, and the load requirements can often be a little different). This approach can minimize some of the external variables such as wind, distance, etc., allowing the shooter to focus more on their groupings with various changing load parameters. It can also give the shooter a better idea of what it takes behind the rifle to shoot a decent group, and facilitate improving their form. Over time, this can lead to greater confidence and consistency behind the rifle so the shooter can then gain the experience necessary to more easily differentiate between a poor load, challenging conditions, or mistakes behind the rifle on their part. Of course you always want to validate a load at the distance you intend to use it, but you can still gain useful information about its behavior at shorter distance.

In the end, the major factors responsible for good precision including having a good load, having the ability to properly read the conditions, and the shooter's form behind the rifle, are all inter-dependent and are not easily separated, especially for inexperienced shooters. Thus, improvement in any/all of these three areas is typically a slow and incremental process that require much time and effort. Most are unlikely to see quantum leaps in performance. Rather, over time, with hard work and dedication, they will at some point come to the realization that their shooting and load development have noticeably improved, even if they cannot put their finger on some specific event or point in time at which it occurred.

 

[dsculley]

Back when I trained cutting horses people would comment on some of the big winners, how they were lucky to get such a good horse to train. One of my heroes, Shorty Freeman (I still call them heroes, not role models and I have quite a few), said "Ain't it funny how those lucky guys are the ones who seem to be working the hardest!" Now Shorty won his fair share and in my opinion is one of the best trainers/cowboys to ever throw a leg across a horse.

 

[Evlshnngns]

QUOTE Ned Ludd....... "By extension, a shooter with poor marksmanship skills will generally find it difficult, if not impossible, to ever develop a well-tuned load, because they simply can't shoot groups with sufficient consistency to discern between one loading and another. Thus, it can often be a catch-22 situation. You need a decent load to really improve your marksmanship, but poor marksmanship makes it difficult to tune a decent load."

ITS LIKE HE'S READING MY MIND...... Would be nice to sit behind someones consistent .1-.2'' gun for 10-20 shots and see where they land.

 

[K22]

Speaking from a varmint / predator hunting perspective where precision is critical on these relatively small critters at extended ranges, obviously your equipment and reloads have to be the best they can be that you can afford. 99.99% of the time the problem is not with my equipment or reloads.

In my experience the most significant factor is me. When I miss it's because I didn't follow the fundamentals and / or rushed the shot. I practice a lot simulating shooting in the field, by a lot I mean frequently not necessary a lot of rounds in one range session, normally only 10 to 12 all from a cold to cool barrel. I focus on ever shot going through the fundamentals, call ever shot and record ever shot all in an effort to get better and more consistent. This is hard work.

But no matter how good my equipment is or how much I practice, in the final analysis shooting is an athletic endeavor and as such subject to our bio-rhythm, i.e. having some good days and some not so good days. The great shooters have fewer not so good days. This is something I learned in competitive pistol shooting for 30 years. Some days everything goes well - you're in the zone shooting above par, most days you're shooting is on par with your capabilities and then some days just go to hell.

 

[alinwa]

I'm mostly kinda' with Alex and Ned...... (sorry guys).......you can't even LEARN to shoot with a bad gun and a good gun can make a newby into a force to be reckoned with. My kids (a whole passel of them) are gamers, like video gamers, put them on a good gun and stand back!

It's a freakin' EYE opener....

My first real gun was built by Art Cocchia, my second by Borden and both of them taught me I DON'T suck!

Yep, I screw up, and YES I need practice but IMO it's the ARROW, not the indian. The quickest way to sort it out is to get a real gun.

 

[alinwa]

QUOTE Ned Ludd....... "By extension, a shooter with poor marksmanship skills will generally find it difficult, if not impossible, to ever develop a well-tuned load, because they simply can't shoot groups with sufficient consistency to discern between one loading and another. Thus, it can often be a catch-22 situation. You need a decent load to really improve your marksmanship, but poor marksmanship makes it difficult to tune a decent load."

ITS LIKE HE'S READING MY MIND...... Would be nice to sit behind someones consistent .1-.2'' gun for 10-20 shots and see where they land.

I let people do just that, a LOT

it's more awesomer than you can imagine, like reaching out with a Magic Marker and putting a dot right 'there'........ and you can see the wind.

 

[JLT]

When Michael Jordan was in his prime, Phil Jackson said (correctly, I think) that anyone would look like a genius if they could put #23 on the floor. On one hand.

On the other hand, I know I can screw up a one car funeral under certain circumstances.

 

[snert]

I have thought a bit about what to add to this thread, owning a shop and running a range means you listen to a lot of bullsh%t. Most folks shoot for fun, all want to be really good at it. As I said recently in Barts 600 yarder thread, it all depends on how big a pond your swimming in. Shooting "good" is relative. On this forum, your swimming in Lake Superior. From what I have seen, most folks are their own worst enemy because they absolutely refuse to admit that they have crappy habits. My weaknesses are things that some of you may take for granted. But I am not afraid to ask a question, knowing the field is 39000 strong means I expect to get a myriad of answers. That gives me a leg up on the guy that's to proud to ask for fear his "persona" may be damaged' or the guy that rips you for asking it.

I do agree equipment plays a part, reloading technique/components as well. Bottom line is, the weakest link is yourself. I had one customer who kept talking about shooting in our yearly match. He showed with no rifle, said it wasn't ready. Several fellow shooters offered him a rifle to shoot, which he refused. The next Saturday he was in the shop saying if he had as much $$$ in the rifle as the winner did, he'd be right up there in the top 5

At that level of competition, which reference wise is a smallish pond with a few big fish, expensive equipment doesn't hurt a thing. It may not be as big a help as he imagined though considering a factory rifle
( albeit expensive ones ) has taken 1st in the match before. If your wish to be a big fish overruns your desire to learn - you've already beaten yourself.

OMG. Blaspheme! Come on Rebel, you KNOW I never miss. Any variable is in my equipment, and NOT because I didn't buy great stuff but because either the guy who made it messed up or the guy who sold it to me was wrong. So it HAS to be anything but me!