Is it possible to anneal too often?

[markm87]

Ultimately each to their own - German Salazar has a very good approach to annealing - what is the problem I am trying to fix?

The problem I was trying to fix was unequal amounts of pressure needed to seat bullets on the same brass run through the same dies in the same batch.

For me it felt like there was an uneven work hardening of the necks. I'm not sure if that was exactly what was happening, but annealing the necks yields me much more consitent "feel" with the seating die.

 

[bozo699]

Ultimately each to their own - German Salazar has a very good approach to annealing - what is the problem I am trying to fix?

The problem I was trying to fix was unequal amounts of pressure needed to seat bullets on the same brass run through the same dies in the same batch.

For me it felt like there was an uneven work hardening of the necks. I'm not sure if that was exactly what was happening, but annealing the necks yields me much more consitent "feel" with the seating die.

Spot on Mark, I don't give two pinches of crap about a scientific explanation I don't care about voodoo dolls and brass gods I care about the fact that I KNOW the amount of force that is required to seat the bullets is less and more consistent, shoulder bump is more consistent and seating depth is more consistent, and I am not positive but I believe my TIR is also less. All the scientific proof I need is what I see on my target, it's what works best for Wayne! When we make changes because something isn't working or we want improvement, only one of three things happen, it worsens, it stay's the same,or it gets better, for me and most others that have tried, perfected there method and regularly anneal there brass have seen positive results on the loading bench and more importantly down range on the target! What more SCIENTIFIC proof is needed then that!
Wayne.

 

[jo191145]

Good post Wayne

I'm surprised more shooters aren't aware of the need to learn annealing. Or buy new brass I quess.

I've seen several reloaders, myself included, that shoot factory rifles with large neck dimensions.
They shoot and shoot and shoot and eventually their pet loads lose accuracy. Many never know why.

I do this test on my own ammo almost everytime I shoot factory guns. Done it on other reloaders ammo and am surprised by the looks I get.
Flip a fired cartridge onto another cartridge in the box. You may be surprised how many folks are firing brass thats so hard a fired case will not slip over the next bullet in line.
I'm not kidding. Seen it on several occassions.

Why a friend of mine who thinks all this VooDoo we discuss here has no real bearing on accuracy actually started tuning his loads by shoulder bump.
His freakin brass was so hard he was actually regulating blowby!!!
He also complained to me his new Redding die I suggested he buy would only size half the neck. I found out he had the bushing backed all the way out and it was sizing nothing.
In true macho fashion he still refuses my help. To each their own. 10 years of load testing for the same Rem 308 and he still has a 2moa gun.

FWIW
In my expierience, but admittedly against logic, brass that is super hardened will take longer in X amount of flame to anneal correctly. Similarily, once annealed it takes a much shorter time to bring it back to the proper state if done regularily.
My 30BR brass really proved that for me once and for all. I attempted to anneal it twice with regular propane but still was having issues with intermittent hard bolt lift even with light loads.
Bought some Mapp gas and went to a full count of 30 before I saw the blue line trace itself down the shoulder. .0095" necks at a count of thirty Lapua 308W is annealed at a count of 15 using propane. Never would've thunk it.
I know 30BR brass technically should'nt need to be annealed according to the lords of 30 but I was having all sorts of issues with mine.
Never annealed them again since finally getting it right. So far all is good.

 

[in2deep]

I am too new and totally unaccomplished to know much but find it curious that after 22 loadings on never-annealed brass that it takes an increasingly smaller size bushing to hold the bullet with the same tension and seems to actually have more springback than when new which seems counter to what you guys are saying and I don't understand it.
Also against conventional wisdom after about 5 firings the seating force from round to round became very consistent as the brass all seems to be in the same state of equilibrium and definately still shoots as good as when it was new just need to keep dropping down the bushing size by a thou once in a while. Strange how we can have opposite experiences with a piece of brass!

 

[Juma]

Good post Wayne

I'm surprised more shooters aren't aware of the need to learn annealing. Or buy new brass I quess.

I've seen several reloaders, myself included, that shoot factory rifles with large neck dimensions.
They shoot and shoot and shoot and eventually their pet loads lose accuracy. Many never know why.

I do this test on my own ammo almost everytime I shoot factory guns. Done it on other reloaders ammo and am surprised by the looks I get.
Flip a fired cartridge onto another cartridge in the box. You may be surprised how many folks are firing brass thats so hard a fired case will not slip over the next bullet in line.
I'm not kidding. Seen it on several occassions.

Why a friend of mine who thinks all this VooDoo we discuss here has no real bearing on accuracy actually started tuning his loads by shoulder bump.
His freakin brass was so hard he was actually regulating blowby!!!
He also complained to me his new Redding die I suggested he buy would only size half the neck. I found out he had the bushing backed all the way out and it was sizing nothing.
In true macho fashion he still refuses my help. To each their own. 10 years of load testing for the same Rem 308 and he still has a 2moa gun.

FWIW
In my expierience, but admittedly against logic, brass that is super hardened will take longer in X amount of flame to anneal correctly. Similarily, once annealed it takes a much shorter time to bring it back to the proper state if done regularily.
My 30BR brass really proved that for me once and for all. I attempted to anneal it twice with regular propane but still was having issues with intermittent hard bolt lift even with light loads.
Bought some Mapp gas and went to a full count of 30 before I saw the blue line trace itself down the shoulder. .0095" necks at a count of thirty Lapua 308W is annealed at a count of 15 using propane. Never would've thunk it.
I know 30BR brass technically should'nt need to be annealed according to the lords of 30 but I was having all sorts of issues with mine.
Never annealed them again since finally getting it right. So far all is good.

Can you clarify that no detriment to use Mapp gas as we use propane and told Mapp was using lava from hell i.e. too hot. Thanks. Think that annealing is the real secret to reloading. No voodoo just sweet resizing and seating.

 

[JRS]

Mapp gas contains acetylene and burns much too hot to use during the annealing process.

 

[jlow]

FWIW, that one piece of 308 Win brass that I overheated and got real soft was heated with Mapp gas – way too hot!

 

[markm87]

I've used both MAPP and Propane. All things equal, you have to run map just over half the time you do Propane in my experience.

Thinner necked brass is too delicate for MAPP... just heats up too fast. My meatier .308 brass works with MAPP... But I'm pretty much going to go all Propane so I can standardize my flame times.

 

[jo191145]

Folks, true story but I would'nt suggest anyone rush out to try Mapp gas. As I said I attempted to anneal this brass twice using propane. Gun was'nt shooting and the brass was sticking. I was at the end of my rope and ready to chuck the brass and barrel in the garbage. There was nothing left to lose. At the time I was'nt even sure annealing would cure the stickiness but I could find no other apparent cause.
Prior to this I never saw a cartridge propane could'nt anneal. No matter how hardened it had become.

With short cartridges like the 30BR I did'nt want my dwell time too long. Heat migrates quickly into areas we don't want heated. Propane was'nt getting the job done at twice the dwell time I've come to know works on standard 308 brass. (Thats the lesson learned ) It seemed logical to possibly ruin the neck by over heating with Mapp compared to possibly softening the case body with propane. The first option ruins brass. The second option may ruin your face.
Brass works fine now with roughly 15 reloads on it.
If I had'nt chosen to defy conventional wisdom and think for myself it would all be in the trash bin now. Never fear your own thoughts.
First thought should always be propane. ;D

 

[Tozguy]

I just got done loading a box of virgin Lapua 6BR. All cases were previously run through an expander but the variation in seating effort was remarkable. In fact there was more variation than I am used to feeling when there is a layer of carbon in the neck. It got me wondering if anybody goes so far as to anneal virgin brass.

 

[37Lincoln1]

Lapua brass is annealed.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I just got done loading a box of virgin Lapua 6BR. All cases were previously run through an expander but the variation in seating effort was remarkable. In fact there was more variation than I am used to feeling when there is a layer of carbon in the neck. It got me wondering if anybody goes so far as to anneal virgin brass.

I do as IMO the neck/shoulder from factory is too hard and I may as well start from a point that will be the same when I anneal using my benchsource.

As an aside who says that the factory annealed brass is optimal for accuracy and consistency? I'm not aware of anyone stating what the annealing factory tolerances are...for all I know my bench source may be annealing more consistently from lot to lot than the factory.

 

[bozo699]

I just got done loading a box of virgin Lapua 6BR. All cases were previously run through an expander but the variation in seating effort was remarkable. In fact there was more variation than I am used to feeling when there is a layer of carbon in the neck. It got me wondering if anybody goes so far as to anneal virgin brass.

I do as IMO the neck/shoulder from factory is too hard and I may as well start from a point that will be the same when I anneal using my benchsource.



As an aside who says that the factory annealed brass is optimal for accuracy and consistency? I'm not aware of anyone stating what the annealing factory tolerances are...for all I know my bench source may be annealing more consistently from lot to lot than the factory.

I would tend to agree with this analogy
Wayne.

 

[markm87]

Lapua brass is annealed.

I think all bottleneck brass is annealed multiple times during the draws. Otherwise it'd split and crack from work hardening. Some manufacturers just polish the iris off of the final product.

 

[bozo699]

Lapua brass is annealed.

I think all bottleneck brass is annealed multiple times during the draws. Otherwise it'd split and crack from work hardening. Some manufacturers just polish the iris off of the final product.

Even straight walled brass is annealed, we don't make rifle brass where I work but we make a lot of pistol brass and it's all annealed in big annealing ovens, it isn't done like we do it or like I believe Lapua does it with a flame, there on moving steal mesh belts with forced HOT! air to get them to the temp/time needed, some of the ovens are gas fired and some are electric.
Wayne.

 

[Tozguy]

Lapua brass is annealed.

I think all bottleneck brass is annealed multiple times during the draws. Otherwise it'd split and crack from work hardening. Some manufacturers just polish the iris off of the final product.

Even straight walled brass is annealed, we don't make rifle brass where I work but we make a lot of pistol brass and it's all annealed in big annealing ovens, it isn't done like we do it or like I believe Lapua does it with a flame, there on moving steal mesh belts with forced HOT! air to get them to the temp/time needed, some of the ovens are gas fired and some are electric.
Wayne.

Wayne, can you give us any info on what testing is done on the brass where you work to control the operation of annealing? Just curious.

 

[bozo699]

Lapua brass is annealed.

I think all bottleneck brass is annealed multiple times during the draws. Otherwise it'd split and crack from work hardening. Some manufacturers just polish the iris off of the final product.

Even straight walled brass is annealed, we don't make rifle brass where I work but we make a lot of pistol brass and it's all annealed in big annealing ovens, it isn't done like we do it or like I believe Lapua does it with a flame, there on moving steal mesh belts with forced HOT! air to get them to the temp/time needed, some of the ovens are gas fired and some are electric.
Wayne.

Wayne, can you give us any info on what testing is done on the brass where you work to control the operation of annealing? Just curious.

No they do all that kind of stuff during the day, I work nights and am just a dumb electrician I can do a little research but a lot of it is proprietary and I can't give SECRETS away but I will see what I can come up with.
Wayne.

 

[spclark]

I did a search using 'testing annealed brass' & while certainly not definitive, came up with:

http://www.petermcbride.com/brass_test/

and:

http://www.akamaiuniversity.us/PJST10_1_15.pdf

and:

http://www.keytometals.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=kts&NM=140

and a really good reference on cartridge brass in detail:

http://www.olinbrass.com/companies/fineweld/Literature/Documents/Alloy%20C260%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

- along with many, many shooting-related articles, forum posts and suggestions of various kinds.

In the end I suspect there's as much art as science in testing relative hardness and ductility (ability to be shaped by mechanical means) during various manufacturing processes. What we see in the products available to us may or may not be the most aporopriate for our particular end use.

I'm one of those choosing to anneal new factory brass prior to first loading, as I feel that brass so treated provides a more consistent starting point than just running new brass over a mandrel.

 

[Tozguy]

Sp,
Thanks for the links, much enjoyed reading the articles.

 

[MrMajestic]

Is it possible to anneal too often? Dad, told me if you do you'll go blind! ;D
A little humor, sorry.