Is it possible to anneal too often?

[Scott Harris]

"Yes. Listen I am certainly no expert on annealing or even shooting (at least compared to some of the amazing shooters I meet, but I do have quite a bit of training in process trouble shooting in manufacturing and I just get the impression that there is as good a statistical argument for inducing variation as there is for eliminating variation with annealing. As far as seating consistency I have my own ideas on why low seating pressure improves seating depth measurements and reducing the interference and making the neck thinner both reduce that without annealing.

To me it's a process thing. That's all. Annealing is another variable. Not to say it doesn't reduce seating pressure.

There is a very good video on YouTube with a world class br shooter and they discuss reducing the neck wall thickness.

There is also a very good article from PS magazine talking about a guy that shot groups in an indoor warehouse for a decade. Shooting tens of thousands of groups. He reduced his neck tension to the point he could seat bullets with the Wilson seated using his hand. He reamed the inside and turned outside and once the cases were prepped they never really varied after that.

Again, I'm no expert. Just discussing what I've seen."
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Bradley, what you described of the warehouse shooter is he learned variance in neck tension has a big effect on accuracy and he reduced absolute variance by reducing total neck tension to a minimum: thin, consistent necks with almost no tension. Annealing is another way to reduce the variance in neck tension. I'm guessing annealing will be more important when there is a larger difference between the chamber and loaded round: brass getting worked more. Also, it's probably more helpful to anneal thicker brass. The point is I think people are working on the same objective and getting there in different ways with different gear. But, reducing variance in neck tension is an important goal producing measurable results on target.

 

[bozo699]

Guess I have heard that you can over anneal and the brass gets too soft. Not sure though if the comment was based on fact or fiction. An expert on metallurgy commenting on this would be nice and useful.

The way I understand it...lets say you heat the case to 700 degrees for three seconds. Lets give that value X. If you turned around and did it again, not shoot them, just re annealed them...700 for three seconds.....the value would still be X...not X + X. The brass would not have been softened or annealed any more, unless you increase the time or the temp, or both.

If you have a hard time understanding what I just wrote, just ask a 3rd grader...(that's about where I put myself) and he can explain it to you. ;D

For me it's going to be anneal every time!!

If you are more informed than this third grader, please chime in. I just purchesed my Bench Sorce and very much enjoy using it!!

I guess I don’t understand the need to be condescending in a technical board? It impedes discussion which is not what we should encourage…. I am sure the moderator will remind you of this. :

However, your description is what I understand is the effect of annealing which is there is a baseline hardness that the work hardened brass returns to when it is annealed. FWIW, I also anneal after every time I shoot my brass and so I am also not trying to debunk your (and my own) technique.

I ask the question because I have seen answers which suggest that one can over anneal and since I am not a metallurgist, it is always useful to ask for an expert opinion.

There is of course also more than seating force that is affected when one anneals, for example, the amount of spring back at the shoulders is also more consistent.

jlow,
I think you have read way more into this then 4Xforfun meant it to be, he was talking about his self, adding a little humor I don't think he was being condescending at all and I don't know why a moderator would be needed at all for that, just thinking about tattle tailing on someone for such pettiness makes me feel like I am in the third grade! that;s all!!
Wayne.

jlow.....the third grader comment was PURLEY aimed at myself. I in no way was refering to anyone else. I am big in to self-depradating humer (if you can call it that). I just don't, or didn't, have the vocabulary to explain it like an ADULT!!

I am sorry if you took it the wrong way. Please accept my apology!!

Tod Soeby

Now, as far as over annealing brass.....I don't think is has anything to do with the NUMBER of times annealed, if done properly....It has to do with how hot , and for how long, you get them. I have no idea what that temp is, or for how long, but my guess is that you can "over anneal" by simply getting them to hot for to long.

Wayne,

I just re read your post...SERIOUSLY...300 guns!!! I think you need to adopt someone to help you shoot and clean all of those guns.......I know of a guy (kid)...he's a third grader...and........

I for one enjoy your humor, it breaks up the monotony
Wayne.

 

[Rtheurer]

I.T.

You stil there? I believe ( and I could be wrong again) that the OP is shooting a Gas gun in a NRA match which requires accuracy of 1MOA or less to shoot a perfect score ( the rifle it self that is) If this is the case than I dont think its going to matter one little bit that he is out of sinc on his annealing if it matters or not. This is where the distinction of Benchrest and the other games seperate i think. ( again I could be wrong )

Good Topic for the rest of the crowd however, I like 4Xfor analogy of how it will react if run through the Bench source one more time. I bet it will be irrelivent to accuracy or the longjevity of his brass based on being a comercial plumber and heating alot of copper and brass in a week for a living. I believe one more annealing isnt going to break the bank persay.

Indeed I too would like to hear and actual Metalurgist's take on the subject.

Again great thread. Cheers to all
Russ T

 

[jlow]

4xforfun – thanks for your response. Not a problem, just did not quite get the point of your jest and took it the wrong way, but that is how it is sometimes. No harm done.

In terms of annealing, my question relates to the degree of annealing not the number of times one anneals. Looking back at the OP's question, I can see how one can easily interpret my question as relating to how often to anneal. I was indeed thinking of over annealing as per FoggyOne2’s comment. What I was trying to figure out is why over annealing i.e. heating too long in one session or too hot would ruin brass.

If one looks at what causes work hardening, the theory is that native metal has a regular defect-free pattern in its crystal lattice structure. When a metal like brass work hardens, the lattice pattern partially dislocates which prevents the metal from deformation, therefore it becomes harder and more brittle. When you anneal a metal, the dislocation goes away and the crystal lattice is restored. Which brings the point to why over annealing would permanently damage the metal i.e. make it too soft? Again, I am not a metallurgist but just trying to make sense of this in more of a fundamental way.

 

[ReedG]

When brass is annealed, it restores or maintains the "spring-back" ability of the neck to grasp the bullet. Annealing is not to "soften" brass, but to restore its strength. Brass with identical neck thickness and sizing bushing will have different neck tension if one is annealed and one isn't. And every time it is fired, the neck tension will change if it is not annealed. To have consistent neck tension, loading after loading, the only way to get it is by annealing.

 

[ReedG]

Jlow, I have had some pieces of brass that were "over-annealed" and actually got red-hot (not the bases -- don't heat the bases). I set them aside trying to bring myself to the point of throwing them away (I have a personal relationship with my brass and really hate to lose one!!). At a match, I told another shooter. He said just shoot 'em and they'll come right back. Being a little dubious, I loaded them with slightly reduced loads, fired them twice, and put them back into the rotation. They are fine.

 

[bozo699]

I.T.

You stil there? I believe ( and I could be wrong again) that the OP is shooting a Gas gun in a NRA match which requires accuracy of 1MOA or less to shoot a perfect score ( the rifle it self that is) If this is the case than I dont think its going to matter one little bit that he is out of sinc on his annealing if it matters or not. This is where the distinction of Benchrest and the other games seperate i think. ( again I could be wrong )

Good Topic for the rest of the crowd however, I like 4Xfor analogy of how it will react if run through the Bench source one more time. I bet it will be irrelivent to accuracy or the longjevity of his brass based on being a comercial plumber and heating alot of copper and brass in a week for a living. I believe one more annealing isnt going to break the bank persay.

Indeed I too would like to hear and actual Metalurgist's take on the subject.

Again great thread. Cheers to all
Russ T

When brass is annealed, it restores or maintains the "spring-back" ability of the neck to grasp the bullet. Annealing is not to "soften" brass, but to restore its strength. Brass with identical neck thickness and sizing bushing will have different neck tension if one is annealed and one isn't. And every time it is fired, the neck tension will change if it is not annealed. To have consistent neck tension, loading after loading, the only way to get it is by annealing.

I absolutely agree with these two statements, Reed your spot on with my understanding of the whole annealing process.

Jlow, I have had some pieces of brass that were "over-annealed" and actually got red-hot (not the bases -- don't heat the bases). I set them aside trying to bring myself to the point of throwing them away (I have a personal relationship with my brass and really hate to lose one!!). At a match, I told another shooter. He said just shoot 'em and they'll come right back. Being a little dubious, I loaded them with slightly reduced loads, fired them twice, and put them back into the rotation. They are fine.

Reed, I don't doubt your word but this was not my finding, I over annealed some 6brx brass and it has never performed right since, I fired it several time and re annealed it but to no avail still not what it should be.
Wayne.

 

[TheSnake]

Not to stray from the original question but one of the main reasons I got a Bench Source was for brass longevity. I get two loads out of my Wife's 257 Weatherby brass and the neck shoulder junctions split on about 10% of them. I may be over sizing the brass in the FL cycle and will look closely at that when I load them up next. With the high price of that brass, if I get 4 or more loads instead of 2, that will quickly pay for the annealed. I will be annealing every time.

Is it easy to under anneal? I am very cautious to not overheat the brass while annealing. I am following the Bench Source instructions carefully and use the 750 and 400 Tempilaq as directed. My annealed Nosler brass has the nice color pattern like the new Lapua brass but just not as dark. Same thing when I anneal Lapua brass for the 6.5x47. I feel I am reaching the correct tempature but at the very last moment of the cycle. So is it easy to under anneal or would it have to be way under annealed to not be beneficial?

 

[jlow]

ReedG – good info, that is what I was trying to figure out. The question here is this idea of over annealing and what exactly it does to the metal and of course for us, if it has any detrimental effect on the metal and precision/accuracy. People say it is no good anymore, my question is how is it no good? Is it too soft and what is actually happening to the metal when you over anneal. The problem here as I see it is the information available is “soft” and usually subjective in nature.

 

[ReedG]

Wayne, I don't have a very in-depth test to report on as it only involved four pieces of brass, which have been returned to the regular rotation in their original lot and I can no longer tell them from the others.

 

[bozo699]

Not to stray from the original question but one of the main reasons I got a Bench Source was for brass longevity. I get two loads out of my Wife's 257 Weatherby brass and the neck shoulder junctions split on about 10% of them. I may be over sizing the brass in the FL cycle and will look closely at that when I load them up next. With the high price of that brass, if I get 4 or more loads instead of 2, that will quickly pay for the annealed. I will be annealing every time.

Is it easy to under anneal? I am very cautious to not overheat the brass while annealing. I am following the Bench Source instructions carefully and use the 750 and 400 Tempilaq as directed. My annealed Nosler brass has the nice color pattern like the new Lapua brass but just not as dark. Same thing when I anneal Lapua brass for the 6.5x47. I feel I am reaching the correct tempature but at the very last moment of the cycle. So is it easy to under anneal or would it have to be way under annealed to not be beneficial?

Robert,
I believe Annealing properly is a fine line between under annealing, Annealing,..and over Annealing, under annealing does nothing but waste your time, over annealing softens your brass so much it looses it's spring back, and of course Annealing restores your spring back, type in Ken Light annealing and read his article on the subject, it's the most complete and I believe correct description on the web.

ReedG – good info, that is what I was trying to figure out. The question here is this idea of over annealing and what exactly it does to the metal and of course for us, if it has any detrimental effect on the metal and precision/accuracy. People say it is no good anymore, my question is how is it no good? Is it too soft and what is actually happening to the metal when you over anneal. The problem here as I see it is the information available is “soft” and usually subjective in nature.

jlow,
My advice to you is the same as I gave Robert read Kens literature, it will explain it all and it is correct, there is a lot of B.S on the web about annealing, not the case with Kens recipe.

Reed, That is good to know, maybe I won't give up on my lot of 6brx brass that I assumed was ruined, I'll pull three or four from the case and run it with some others, marked of course and see if the ever pull out of it.
Wayne.

http://www.kenlightmfg.com/cartridgecaseannealer.htm

 

[Tozguy]

(/quote)

Yes. Listen I am certainly no expert on annealing or even shooting (at least compared to some of the amazing shooters I meet, but I do have quite a bit of training in process trouble shooting in manufacturing and I just get the impression that there is as good a statistical argument for inducing variation as there is for eliminating variation with annealing. As far as seating consistency I have my own ideas on why low seating pressure improves seating depth measurements and reducing the interference and making the neck thinner both reduce that without annealing.

To me it's a process thing. That's all. Annealing is another variable. Not to say it doesn't reduce seating pressure.

[/quote]

Bradley Walker makes a valid point. Aside from the well proven science of metallurgy and any theoretical advantages of returning brass cases to their original state of softness/hardness, there is the concern of how consistent (from case to case and from run to run) our individual method for annealing at home actually is.
Considering how even sophisticated controls in a manufacturing environment will result in variances in the product, it is difficult to imagine how sure we can be about the result from a less sophisticated hobbyist approach with no instrumentation to measure the material before and after. Does going through the motions of annealing mean that the cases are annealed?

 

[jlow]

Thanks Wayne for the link to Ken’s article – it is a very good article, probably the best, but it does not completely answer my question.

Not to hijack this thread but what I am trying to figure out is what happens to brass when it is overheated for too long. Most articles on annealing will tell you that annealing will “return the brass to its original state”. Now overheated cases obviously can soften the head of the case which is dangerous for obvious reasons but we are not talking about the head here only the neck and shoulder. For example if you heat a case sitting in water, the head can never be overheated but what is the effect of heating the neck and shoulders so that they are red hot. What happens to the metal, does it get softer than when it was in its virgin state?

Ken’s article tells you that the over annealed case is soft and apparently with little spring back – this is useful. However, what I am trying to also understand is what is actually happening to the crystal state of the metal and is this irreversible?

 

[spclark]

Over-annealing brass is a question of degree. Too hot just one time (I mean really hot and for an extended duration, probably well beyond the three or four seconds most of us time it) will literally burn the zinc out of the brass leaving just copper, and probably oxidized copper at that.

Try it once yourself: heat a case to red hot & hold it in the flame for 20 - 30 seconds. When cooled the metal will be dark and flakey, and very easy to crush in your fingers.

A well-respected gunsmith commented here last year about some brass he deliberately over-annealed to red hot for a brief period, certainly not 20 seconds though, and he found it to shoot just fine afterwards.

So there's some margin of error to be aware of but I'd venture to suggest most shooters err on the side of less vs. more when trying to establish the elusive point at "just enough."

From Wikipedia:

For a metal, zinc has relatively low melting (419.5 °C, 787.1 F) and boiling points (907 °C). For copper: melting point, 1357.77 K, 1084.62 °C, 1984.32 °F ...

 

[jlow]

Thanks! Here is the thing, that brass at the neck has thickness and even though it is only between 10-20 thousands, microscopically speaking, that is a lot of thickness. I am doubtful that one can burn the zinc out of the brass since the zinc is an integral part of the brass and unless it has a vaporization temperature much lower than copper, it would be impossible to take it out. The same for oxidation. One can see oxidation happening to the surface of the metal but that is a very very thin part of the metal because for oxidation to happen inside, oxygen has to get in there and it is hard to envision oxygen permeating through solid metal or even the oxidation.

Still, it appears that over heating the brass in annealing does soften the brass in a way that gives it that no-springback feel. I have s piece of 308 win brass that I really heated up with a torch and when I try to reload it, despite the fact that I FLR and neck sized it just like the rest of the brass, the neck tension was incredibly less than the normally annealed brass – so from this very limited personal experience, it appears to be real. If you look at the brass, it looks absolutely normal so something must be happening to the metal itself.

I would agree that for this to happen, you really have to be trying….

 

[Bradley Walker]

Bradley Walker makes a valid point. Aside from the well proven science of metallurgy and any theoretical advantages of returning brass cases to their original state of softness/hardness, there is the concern of how consistent (from case to case and from run to run) our individual method for annealing at home actually is.
Considering how even sophisticated controls in a manufacturing environment will result in variances in the product, it is difficult to imagine how sure we can be about the result from a less sophisticated hobbyist approach with no instrumentation to measure the material before and after. Does going through the motions of annealing mean that the cases are annealed?

Exactly... there is no QA...

 

[markm87]

I agree that home annealing is a bit risky compared to large scale production with good instrumentation.

But I still find that even manually annealing my brass yields noticeably more consistent neck tension than not doing it at all. It appears to do more good than harm from what I can tell.

 

[Tozguy]

Mark,
Not questionning your results but could you describe what is on the inside of the necks (lube, carbon, etc) before the annealing procedure versus after annealing at the point the cases are ready to load?

 

[markm87]

Mark,
Not questionning your results but could you describe what is on the inside of the necks (lube, carbon, etc) before the annealing procedure versus after annealing at the point the cases are ready to load?

Before my .308 brass is annealed, they've been tumbled in SS media. So they're fairly clean, but not glassy smooth.

I then, anneal and then size/neck size. Since I'm not turning case necks, I run a neck expander die into the neck. (we're running factory Rem 700 barrels, so O.D. on the necks can vary... I.D. is where I try to achieve consistency.)

The neck expander die gives me about .002" in neck tension and leaves a light scoring on the inside of the necks. Not so much that if you pull a bullet you can see jacket scratches... but just enough that it's not too smooth on the inside of the neck.

(I'm open to suggestions always.... I've changed die settings based on replies here and they've made big differences! )

 

[6BRinNZ]

Bradley Walker makes a valid point. Aside from the well proven science of metallurgy and any theoretical advantages of returning brass cases to their original state of softness/hardness, there is the concern of how consistent (from case to case and from run to run) our individual method for annealing at home actually is.
Considering how even sophisticated controls in a manufacturing environment will result in variances in the product, it is difficult to imagine how sure we can be about the result from a less sophisticated hobbyist approach with no instrumentation to measure the material before and after. Does going through the motions of annealing mean that the cases are annealed?

Exactly... there is no QA...

We do - to the extent that anything is tested in our home loading process. There are many ways to measure the impact of annealing, shoulder bump, seating depth consistencies and brass life are three indicators I use.

Neck tension is only one indicator - we can't measure neck tension but we can use tools that are indicators of neck tension. Tools such as the K&M arbor press gauge and base to Ogive measurements (seating depth consistency). Myself and many others use these tools and see improvements after annealing. Our ultimate QA is on paper, as others have stated they see a difference.

Ultimately each to their own - German Salazar has a very good approach to annealing - what is the problem I am trying to fix? In his case he doesn't have a problem so he doesn't anneal. (at least in the blog I read anyways)