I'm getting ready to start reloading for my .223, and I can't decide between Varget and CFE 223. I couldn't care less about metering because I hand-weigh every load on a ridiculously precise balance, so the question really is about powder consistency for 60 consecutive rounds without cleaning. Varget appears to be more temp insensitive, and CFE 223 is cleaner. I know that several F-class shooters load with Varget. Do any of you load with CFE 223?
Is Anyone Loading with CFE 223 for F-Class?
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Cleanest burning powders ive seen in my .223 are re15 and n133. W748 works well too. I use cci450 primers in my loads. I was skeptical of w748, but with magnum primers it shoots extremely well.
PopCharlie
PopCharlie
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
CFE shoots great for me and a friend who use it regularly for several years now. I don't leave ammo in the sun or cook-off a round in the chamber to tempt a temperature issue, and have not experienced any problems. It is much faster and more accurate than Varget or RL15 in my evaluations, and much easier to dispense precisely.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
You are correct, my ES with CFE is around 30. But the node is relatively wide such that shooting 10s at 600yd fclass and holding vertical is not an issue.
CFE and small primers don't go together well in 308 Win size charges, so it's a no-no for the bigger cartridge in F/TR with Lapua Palma brass and similar from Peterson et al.
I've not heard of anyone using it in the 223 in this kind of competition here (UK), but 223 F/TR users are very rare animals anyway on this side of the Atlantic.
I've not heard of anyone using it in the 223 in this kind of competition here (UK), but 223 F/TR users are very rare animals anyway on this side of the Atlantic.
I have a Criterion barrel with standard throat/leade so I had to give up on Varget for the 80 gr bullets and go with a ball powder due to bullet intrusion issues. I chose CF223 and it's worked well. I don't compete though, FWIW. With the 73 Berger I had less intrusion and much better case volume available. Still deciding which is better in the wind.
I had some pretty amazing results (for me anyways) when I played with CFE and the Flatline 180s in 308. I bought 50 to try out and once I established a load, these were my results:
These aren't cherry picked from a whole bunch of groups, these are literally what I recorded with the remaining rounds I had after load workup. I didn't have enough bullets left to do 5-10 shot groups.
Looks great, right? Here's the bad news - I shoot out in the desert and we have extreme temperature differences. Goes from 80s in the morning up in the 120s out here during the summer. What I found with CFE is that it performs best right at max loads. Problem is that it exceeds max pressure once it gets hot very easily. I went to a long range rifle clinic with the load you see above thinking I was golden, temps were only 10-15 degrees higher than what I was shooting in. Blown primers the entire time.
When I got back home I tried reducing but the load wasn't as accurate or stable. So I had to resort to carefully tailoring load to temperatures. Huge pain the ass. I ultimately went back to Varget and appreciated the load stability over a much wider range of temps.
For the previous posters who mentioned ES/SD challenges, I had the exact same issue until I got the load near max pressure. I did this using velocity from my magnetospeed and quickload.
Just my experience and .02 on the subject
These aren't cherry picked from a whole bunch of groups, these are literally what I recorded with the remaining rounds I had after load workup. I didn't have enough bullets left to do 5-10 shot groups.
Looks great, right? Here's the bad news - I shoot out in the desert and we have extreme temperature differences. Goes from 80s in the morning up in the 120s out here during the summer. What I found with CFE is that it performs best right at max loads. Problem is that it exceeds max pressure once it gets hot very easily. I went to a long range rifle clinic with the load you see above thinking I was golden, temps were only 10-15 degrees higher than what I was shooting in. Blown primers the entire time.
When I got back home I tried reducing but the load wasn't as accurate or stable. So I had to resort to carefully tailoring load to temperatures. Huge pain the ass. I ultimately went back to Varget and appreciated the load stability over a much wider range of temps.
For the previous posters who mentioned ES/SD challenges, I had the exact same issue until I got the load near max pressure. I did this using velocity from my magnetospeed and quickload.
Just my experience and .02 on the subject
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Don't overlook H4895 for running heavies in the .223 Rem in F-TR. In my hands, no other powder I've tested has been close to H4895 in terms of precision and I've tested quite a few, although not CFE223.
I generally avoid using ball powders in F-TR due to the long strings of fire. Yes, you can certainly generate greater velocity, but the increased temperature sensitivity is not worth it IMO. As I recall, there are a few F-TR shooters that frequent Accurate Shooter that have been using CFE223 with 80-90gr bullets, including at least one in FL, where the temps definitely get hot. I also seem to recall they have stated that ES/SD with CFE223 wasn't a problem during matches their hands. So it's probably worth getting some and determining how it actually works in your setup.
One other important thing to consider about velocity with bullets such as Berger's 90 VLD and the Hornady 88 ELDM is that some rifle setups cause bullet jacket failures more readily than others. Factors such as barrel length, bore diameter, land/groove configuration, and twist rate are contributing factors. In any event, many F-TR shooters will run 90 VLDs, for example, at anywhere from about 2750 to 2850 fps from a 30" barrel with single base powders such as Varget or H4895. Attempting to push them any faster can sometimes result in jacket failure. Anyone that has ever had a bullet jacket let go during a match knows that even once is too often. So I am not a proponent of trying to get every last scrap of velocity possible. If the extra 150 or 200 fps possible with some double base powders increases the risk of jacket failure, is it really worth it? Only the end user can answer that question.
I generally avoid using ball powders in F-TR due to the long strings of fire. Yes, you can certainly generate greater velocity, but the increased temperature sensitivity is not worth it IMO. As I recall, there are a few F-TR shooters that frequent Accurate Shooter that have been using CFE223 with 80-90gr bullets, including at least one in FL, where the temps definitely get hot. I also seem to recall they have stated that ES/SD with CFE223 wasn't a problem during matches their hands. So it's probably worth getting some and determining how it actually works in your setup.
One other important thing to consider about velocity with bullets such as Berger's 90 VLD and the Hornady 88 ELDM is that some rifle setups cause bullet jacket failures more readily than others. Factors such as barrel length, bore diameter, land/groove configuration, and twist rate are contributing factors. In any event, many F-TR shooters will run 90 VLDs, for example, at anywhere from about 2750 to 2850 fps from a 30" barrel with single base powders such as Varget or H4895. Attempting to push them any faster can sometimes result in jacket failure. Anyone that has ever had a bullet jacket let go during a match knows that even once is too often. So I am not a proponent of trying to get every last scrap of velocity possible. If the extra 150 or 200 fps possible with some double base powders increases the risk of jacket failure, is it really worth it? Only the end user can answer that question.
Great info everyone. Thank you!
My situation is a bit different than others because I'm planning to shoot my Tikka T3 with only a 1:10 twist. Obviously not the ideal setup, but I want to participate in some matches before deciding if I want to invest in a proper rig. The rifle stabilizes up to 69gr, but I'm reluctant to try anything heavier. What works well for 90gr will not necessarily perform the same behind a 69gr bullet. If others are seeing temp stability issues with CFE 223, then I want nothing to do with it. Probably better off going with one of the extreme powders like Varget.
My situation is a bit different than others because I'm planning to shoot my Tikka T3 with only a 1:10 twist. Obviously not the ideal setup, but I want to participate in some matches before deciding if I want to invest in a proper rig. The rifle stabilizes up to 69gr, but I'm reluctant to try anything heavier. What works well for 90gr will not necessarily perform the same behind a 69gr bullet. If others are seeing temp stability issues with CFE 223, then I want nothing to do with it. Probably better off going with one of the extreme powders like Varget.
I bought an 8# jug a couple of years ago and it got pushed to the back of the powder cabinet and I forgot about it 
. Loaded up some 55gr FMJ and went to the range this week. They did pretty well. The stuff does have a strong smell though. If I didn't already have some really good Varget and H4895 loads for my heavies, I might give it a try with those but for now, I'm using it to conserve my stash of BLC2, H335, and W748.
. Loaded up some 55gr FMJ and went to the range this week. They did pretty well. The stuff does have a strong smell though. If I didn't already have some really good Varget and H4895 loads for my heavies, I might give it a try with those but for now, I'm using it to conserve my stash of BLC2, H335, and W748.
Interesting comment about your criterion barrel. I have a criterion barreled 6.5x47L. It wont shoot varget. It shoots Imr 4451 for 130 and 140 gr bullets. H4350 for 120s.
PopCharlie
I use both in my non competitive 223 F/TR. using different weights of powders (obviously) the results are about the same for me. CFE much cleaner, though.
who would ever think this would be necessary? now, let me look in the back of my cabinets for those cases of srp's i misplaced.
CFE is a pretty high MV powder, but from what I've seen in the testing of others, it's not a powder that will deliver accuracy with consistency.
Nobody in our matches runs it that I know of.
As for cleanliness, 8208 XBR is super clean at warmer charges. Cleaner then R15 in my experience. I'm liking AR Comp more and more these days. Haven't found a load yet that is quite as tight as my 8208 load, but AR Comp gives you superior temp stability over 8208.
I have a keg of pp2K I'm playing with. Seems super high MV but just haven't found the accuracy I was seeing with 8208, RL15, and AR Comp.
Nobody in our matches runs it that I know of.
As for cleanliness, 8208 XBR is super clean at warmer charges. Cleaner then R15 in my experience. I'm liking AR Comp more and more these days. Haven't found a load yet that is quite as tight as my 8208 load, but AR Comp gives you superior temp stability over 8208.
I have a keg of pp2K I'm playing with. Seems super high MV but just haven't found the accuracy I was seeing with 8208, RL15, and AR Comp.
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