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Is 500yd enough to true BC's

My preference is still an as tested dope chart with a hot day and a cold day and from that "table" you can make an educated swag at the dope around those two tables and measured or ranged distance. That "table" is the actual solutions for all the averages and unknowns on those days. If you're trying to hit an IPSC at unknown distance this'll get you there, you make the wind call; trying to hit a grape at unknown distance; well, we're all trying to get that good, several of us will settle for all X at 600y+

I like where your heads at on this point.

So many guys rely entirely on ballistic solvers to the point that they never develop any instincts.

A buddy dropped hard in the rankings after departing from his heads up display, not because the HUD is better, but because he lost his natural ability because of it. Now he has to get back to nature where he started.

I do use a Kestrel but its a supplement to my documentation, not a substitute for it.
 
There is a lot to be said to having good data from previous shots and knowing your rifle.


But you can absolutely true a Kestrel to the point it'll give you accurate output if you put some time and good data into it. I haven't ran into a situation where I couldn't get data from my kestrel and hit MOA steel.


I run my labradar often to get a good MV. I haven't had to tweak it. 600+ I fudge BC around till the Kestrel is lining up with what I'm seeing on target.

You can adjust the zero offset in a Kestrel. That's critical. Gotta have a good start.

Input everything as accurately as you can. Scope height, bullet length, barrel twist...all the little things can add up.


If you're trying to hit a gnat at 1k....well...I'm happy with hitting a 33% IPSC when conditions are decent.
 
Maybe not a gnat at 1k. But my nemesis is the small target on a KYL@ 500 lol

My very first PRS match, my very first stage ever, was a KYL rack @ 475. i cleaned it once and hit 4 the next pass through for a 9 out of 10. I thought i was meant for this sport after that. I also did it with a factory rifle and factory ammunition. Ive never cleaned another rack since then during a match.
 
There is a lot to be said to having good data from previous shots and knowing your rifle.


But you can absolutely true a Kestrel to the point it'll give you accurate output if you put some time and good data into it. I haven't ran into a situation where I couldn't get data from my kestrel and hit MOA steel.


I run my labradar often to get a good MV. I haven't had to tweak it. 600+ I fudge BC around till the Kestrel is lining up with what I'm seeing on target.

You can adjust the zero offset in a Kestrel. That's critical. Gotta have a good start.

Input everything as accurately as you can. Scope height, bullet length, barrel twist...all the little things can add up.


If you're trying to hit a gnat at 1k....well...I'm happy with hitting a 33% IPSC when conditions are decent.

Well, there is a caveat to this statement...

When shooting in the wind, or hills, the Kestrel will only know the wind where the Kestrel is. It does not know that you are inside a covered firing point, or that there is a tree line that covers 50 percent of your shooting distance on the left side of the range.

Sooner or later the shooter has to over ride what the Kestrel is "suggesting" and make a decision for himself.

Relying too much on the Kestrel as the sole god you pray to is not exactly a recipe for excellence. Mediocrity... sure, but not excellence.
 
Well, there is a caveat to this statement...

When shooting in the wind, or hills, the Kestrel will only know the wind where the Kestrel is. It does not know that you are inside a covered firing point, or that there is a tree line that covers 50 percent of your shooting distance on the left side of the range.

Sooner or later the shooter has to over ride what the Kestrel is "suggesting" and make a decision for himself.

Relying too much on the Kestrel as the sole god you pray to is not exactly a recipe for excellence. Mediocrity... sure, but not excellence.


Oh absolutely you have to learn the wind and it's behaviors. I rely on the Kestrel more for elevation than windage...and that's trued up and verified over a course of ideal days.

A little head or tail wind will cause issues...

My range has a few drainage ditches to shoot across. I know when the thermals are rising or falling it'll effect the bullet and often times you won't see much across the landscape to tell you..



Ballistic calculators, dry firing, etc etc are great tools....but time behind the trigger and rounds down range are very important.


KYL racks are great and I shoot a weekly club league just to continue to learn. A lot happens as a bullet travels across a landscape. That particular range has racks spread across about 120 degrees or so...which means on a day with a steady wind direction, you're still shooting a different wind as you shoot different racks.
 
Go back and shoot the same load at about an hour befor dark as then no mirage .
I don't test during the heat of the day .
I dont disagree here, i should do that.

However we are forced to shoot all our matches in the heat of the day, so i better get used to dealing with mirage and how to adjust for it. I dont know about the rest of the US, but central/south florida in the summer has got to be some of the worst conditions to attempt precision rifle sports. Targets past 800 disappear in mirage.
 
I dont disagree here, i should do that.

However we are forced to shoot all our matches in the heat of the day, so i better get used to dealing with mirage and how to adjust for it. I dont know about the rest of the US, but central/south florida in the summer has got to be some of the worst conditions to attempt precision rifle sports. Targets past 800 disappear in mirage.


IMO, You want to verify your data when you can make the best shots without visibility issues or conditions playing a big role. You want to know what the load does. Not wonder of its wind or mirage etc.

Train in the heat of the day if that is when your matches are...but get your data trued when conditions are optimal. Adjust as needed for conditions of the day.

Our KYL rules are don't engage the racks we shoot at prior to the match...but we can verify data on other targets....and there are plenty...so I run out behind 1k and check my data and see what the wind is doing etc.
 
This brings us back to knowledge and experience that is needed to correct for what the Kestrel does not see.

As an example the old " Lights up, sights up" is image refraction that is not factored by the Kestrel.

In the heat of day with sun high in the sky, or worse yet, intermittent cloud cover, you need to know when that will cause verticals and the Kestrel cannot tell you that.
 
Pretty basic. Is 500 yds enough to true BC's? I ran a test today. 500yd. Berger140 LRBT. 2783FPS. I entered all my environmentals. Data called for 2.71mils of elevation. I dialed. Gave it my best attempt (mirage was brutal) And my group center was 1.25" under my aim point. Group displayed 1.5" of vertical with a 10mph wind from 5 o'clock

If I was to adjust the BC to correct my impact up, I would have to correct it from the advertised .304 G7 to ~.280G7 That seems like a lot to me, or is it not?
If Bryan Litz has published a BC for the bullet I’m using, then I true velocity, not BC. This has worked well enough for me that I seldom even use a chrono anymore. I just make an educated guess on the velocity and then use the POI difference to true the velocity. Works very well.
John
 
Personally,.. I like to "work up" my Loads at, 100 Yds, Then Re-Test the BEST ones at, 200 and Zero at, 200.
Then "True" the BC's at, 400, 500 and 650 or, 700 yards with, 3-4 shots, at each of those, Distances.
Yup, it's a Bit of, work but,.. THEN,. I, KNOW !
The Berger BC's are extremely,.. "close" ! Most Sierra's are also, very "Good",. some Nosler's, NOT so much !
Old guy ( Me ) possibly too, OCD - anal,.. WHAT ,.. me ???
 
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Update!!! I cleaned the KYL rack in a match this past Sunday! Redemption! That's been a long time coming. Finished 5th. 3 Points behind the winner. It was a close match.

I think that since my original post, I've come to terms with using 500yds for data checking. In central florida, I can't get on a 1k yard range during minimal data distorting conditions. Maybe when my kids are older and they can join me, but for now, 500 yards, its working. I've got more kinks to work out with myself than I do with bullet BC.
 
Unfortunately all companies pretty much lie about their products.... I recently got into bows , they really lie.... When the rate pick ups towing capacity from what I understand they strip the vehicle of all the weight they can including putting a very small person to drive it.... Is it a lie , no but it's cheating because the truck you buy doesn't have all the weight taken out... A bow with a rating of 320 fps but only at full power settings and with a 31 inch draw... Most people including myself can't get anywhere near a 31 inch draw... Sooooo are they full O crap , no not really but it's almost always impossible to get what companies advertise....
 
Pretty basic. Is 500 yds enough to true BC's? I ran a test today. 500yd. Berger140 LRBT. 2783FPS. I entered all my environmentals. Data called for 2.71mils of elevation. I dialed. Gave it my best attempt (mirage was brutal) And my group center was 1.25" under my aim point. Group displayed 1.5" of vertical with a 10mph wind from 5 o'clock

If I was to adjust the BC to correct my impact up, I would have to correct it from the advertised .304 G7 to ~.280G7 That seems like a lot to me, or is it not?
image.jpg
 
An important factor in this kind of an exercise is understanding how actual bullet trajectory over its entire flight compares to the flight path predicted by various ballistics calculators. I have always used JBM for a number of reasons, but mainly because it satisfies my specific needs. I noticed early on that its predictions with the loads I was using seemed to be very good out to 300-400 yd, and also at 1000 yd. However, the region from about 500-700 yd was where the predicted drops didn't seem to match up very well with real world drops. Because the predicted drops both closer and further from that region were basically spot on, I don't believe it was an issue with bullet BC or velocity, but rather something to do with how the calculator predicts/calculates drops. In other words, the predicted trajectories for my loads were mostly spot on, but were slightly off in the middle to slightly past middle distances. For that reason, using a distance in the middle range to "true" up the entire trajectory could well have thrown everything out of whack.

One issue with using actual drops at a specified distance that must be considered in this type of exercise is the starting zero at shorter distance (i.e. 100 yd zero). As an example, let's say someone has zeroed their rifle at 100 yd, shooting a half-MOA group. The elevation turret setting that produced that half-MOA group has already potentially introduced +/- ~0.25 MOA variance into the mix when subtracting it from the average elevation required at some farther distance (i.e. measuring drop). Thus, establishing the short range zero as tightly as possible is important when carrying out this type of exercise. Likewise, wind conditions that affect elevation at distance, mirage, and a few other factors can come into play.

Since I acquired a LabRadar a few years ago, I have extensively used the velocity differential from 0 and 55 yd to estimate bullet BCs, again at JBM Ballistics. I do this largely to compare various bullets, pointing methods, etc. It is worth note that 55 yd is far from ideal in terms of velocity drop because the magnitude of the velocity drop is much smaller than it would be at something like 500 yd. This has the potential to compress the y-axis of a graph of velocity versus distance, rendering BCs estimated using such data to potentially be less accurate. Nonetheless, I routinely generate BC estimates for unpointed bullets that are spot on the box value. Further, pointing bullets will yield the expected ~4-6% increase in BC. Finally, when used in combination with measured average muzzle velocities, these "estimated" BCs seem to provide pretty good drops at various distances. My point here is that there is typically more than one way to generate a drop chart. If actual drops do not agree well with predicted drops from a ballistic calculator, it may be worth checking or comparing using a different method. In general, the more information you have, the better off you will be.
 

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