Invested in cartridge gauge.. 308, 223

[Steve Donlon]

Yes. The Redding Body die will only bump the shoulder back if it is already sized and it will not touch the neck. I have never used it to size brass, only bump the shoulder back. That way if it is already sized you can feel when the die hits the shoulder and screw the die down slowly to control how much bump you need. That's why I like the RCBS Precision Mic gauge to see exactly how much the shoulder is moving while I'm bumping it back. The FL die first, then the body die if the shoulder needs to go back more.

 

[brccd]

You still don't have a bump gauge?

I do have a comparater set to measure the mid shoulder and ogive.

 

[brccd]

Am I missing something? What do the Sheridan or Hornady gauges offer that the Wilson's don't?

The Sheridan has a cartridge version with a cut out so you can check fit, and visually see along the length of the cartridge where things are lining up. Replicating a view of the cartridge in the chamber. Hornady checks fit but you don't see the internal fit. Not sure about the Wilson?

 

[brccd]

Yes. The Redding Body die will only bump the shoulder back if it is already sized and it will not touch the neck. I have never used it to size brass, only bump the shoulder back. That way if it is already sized you can feel when the die hits the shoulder and screw the die down slowly to control how much bump you need. That's why I like the RCBS Precision Mic gauge to see exactly how much the shoulder is moving while I'm bumping it back. The FL die first, then the body die if the shoulder needs to go back more.

hmmm, ok, don't have that. but sounds like another die is going to be ordered soon...developing a real collection!

 

[Doom]

The Sheridan has a cartridge version with a cut out so you can check fit, and visually see along the length of the cartridge where things are lining up. Replicating a view of the cartridge in the chamber. Hornady checks fit but you don't see the internal fit. Not sure about the Wilson?

This is an interesting gauge. FWIW, when I first tried to use once fired 308/7.51 LC cases it would have been helpful. Would have helped cull the machine gun brass. But that is the only time that I have seen the need for it. I would have saved a little time that was spent gaining experience. If I didn't have a gauge I would buy this one but I would buy one if I already had a gauge in that cartridge.

 

[brccd]

ok, to help me understand the shoulder bumping a little better (and tweek my reloading!)...looking at the .308 spec drawing...

the mid shoulder point is at the 0.400 mark correct? and should read 1.630" (maybe less) from the base correct?

So, if you have a shoulder reading ( using the comparitor with 0.400 insert) and it shows more than the 1.630 measurement, the Redding body die can be used to push this back down a bit, while keeping everything else in spec. Is this correct?

Is there another measurement point to make besides mid shoulder?
Then use the cartridge gauges to see where this all sits actually (especially slotted Sheridan)!

So, the sequence to prep with 1x fired brass to get things in spec:
Run brass casing:
1. thru regular full size die (Lee)
2. thru small base die (RCBS)
3. Check brass in case gauge (Dillon)
4. Check brass in cartridge gauge (Hornady)
5. Check shoulder bump measurement (comparator)
6. If off run through Redding Body Die (Redding)
7. Check again in cartridge gauge (Hornady, Sheridan)
8. Trim case
9. Trim primer pocket, clean

Case ready to get loaded!

Does this reciepe look ok?

Thx

 

[danny]

Am I missing something? What do the Sheridan or Hornady gauges offer that the Wilson's don't?

The Hornady gage checks the actual dimensions of the case. Wilson gages only check the length of the case to the shoulder, maybe neck length.

Danny

 

[358WCF]

So, the sequence to prep with 1x fired brass to get things in spec:
Run brass casing:
1. thru regular full size die (Lee)
2. thru small base die (RCBS)
3. Check brass in case gauge (Dillon)
4. Check brass in cartridge gauge (Hornady)
5. Check shoulder bump measurement (comparator)
6. If off run through Redding Body Die (Redding)
7. Check again in cartridge gauge (Hornady, Sheridan)
8. Trim case
9. Trim primer pocket, clean

Case ready to get loaded!

Does this reciepe look ok?



View attachment 1617521

It sure does look like a whole lot of extra work & $$ spent on unnecessary tooling. How many of your case gauges agree within .001"? I was going wild one day for about 1/2 hour until I found out that Lapua 06 brass is a tad bigger at the .200 line than domestic brass. That's why it wouldn't chamber in my snug chambered rifle. Thirty seven sizing dies & fourteen case gauges used in all possible orders couldn't have fixed or diagnosed the problem. A Sharpie, a ruined oversized case that still didn't fit, & some searching/reading is all it cost.

I see a few threads about your sizing problems & haven't studied any of them. While I'm sure your problem was properly addressed by some, there's just too many cooks & all that.

Why not fit the brass to your chamber rather than hoping it will fit by using paper specs & inexact measurements? If small base is needed, why dick around with all the other stuff? If small base doesn't get it, then why beat the hell out of your brass? If the brass is once fired & over-expanded radially, it will never work well. Do you even know where the interference is? New brass is relatively cheaper & a better start than umpteen different measuring devices & dies.

Does your h/space comparator sit at exactly the .400" line or just close to it? Remember... a comparator, by definition, will compare dimensions but is not an exact measurement. Used with this understanding, it can be a useful tool. The only spec you need is what new brass fired in your chamber without bumping shoulders 2 or 3 or more times reads (max h/space when it gets a bit hard to chamber) & what your sized brass reads with the bump. I try to keep the bump to .002-.003" for bolt guns... .004" works OK, but is my personal max. Try new brass. It hasn't been subjected to a sloppy chamber yet.

Your 1.630" measurement is the SAAMI minimum. See also the maximum which is 1.640". That .010" may very well cause case separations after a firing or 2 if you have a max chamber. That's a whole 'nuther problem that can be avoided.

Nothing magical. It fits or it doesn't (that's what she said ). Or you can keep throwing $$ at it. The tool makers will be happy.

 

[brccd]

I can appreciate the words of wisdom...I know, I am used to things meeting specs (engineering!) and why I am trying get things there. But, as you meniton and others have said too, there are differences in chambers, effecting the brass, and just a tiny bit off with that has a problem in other chambers. I have to get my head into that concept! I go in thinking...it all gets squared away with dies, and such, but not always 100%.

So one last thought...do most people, starting with new brass, keep that same brass for the one gun it was used in for reloading? If so, this chambering issue, seems to then become a non issue? Each gun has its own reloadable brass?

The next thng to do, as you mention, will be gettng new brass and working with that a bit. See what develops with that. I have a bunch of 1X fired brass, so thought I was doing things right....originally thought it didnt matter if they all met spec! As for more tools, I think I am at the limit. Enough toys! Well time to go to my playroom and play with some of the toys now...

 

[Webster]

ok, to help me understand the shoulder bumping a little better (and tweek my reloading!)...looking at the .308 spec drawing...

the mid shoulder point is at the 0.400 mark correct? and should read 1.630" (maybe less) from the base correct?

So, if you have a shoulder reading ( using the comparitor with 0.400 insert) and it shows more than the 1.630 measurement, the Redding body die can be used to push this back down a bit, while keeping everything else in spec. Is this correct?

Is there another measurement point to make besides mid shoulder?
Then use the cartridge gauges to see where this all sits actually (especially slotted Sheridan)!

So, the sequence to prep with 1x fired brass to get things in spec:
Run brass casing:
1. thru regular full size die (Lee)
2. thru small base die (RCBS)
3. Check brass in case gauge (Dillon)
4. Check brass in cartridge gauge (Hornady)
5. Check shoulder bump measurement (comparator)
6. If off run through Redding Body Die (Redding)
7. Check again in cartridge gauge (Hornady, Sheridan)
8. Trim case
9. Trim primer pocket, clean

Case ready to get loaded!

Does this reciepe look ok?

Thx

View attachment 1617521

Your making everything way to complicated. Forget all your gauges just cheeck with a bump gauge.

 

[brccd]

New question re bullet seating and cartridge gauge...

Had a batch of cases, all sized (RCBS small base die), all trimmed, measured, checked them in the cartridge gauge, all fit nicely, Loaded primers...checked in cartridge gauge again...still good. Loaded 41 gr Varget, used Hornady A-max bullets 168 gr seated them, set COAL to 2.800, then checked them in cartridge gauge, and 20% of them now don't fit flush to bottom of gauge!!! Measured these, coal was right. Used RCBS seater, and also tried the Lee seater. Measured powder for every case to exactly 41 gr...so not like there is some variation there.
Is it possible the seating caused a bulge?

Also made a batch with hornady eld match 168...similar issue with those!

Going to the range tomorrow. Worried about using some of these that don't sit flush in gauge, in bolt action rifles...savage 11, and mossberg patriot LR.

I tried testing one of these in the rifles to load, and bolt closes fine. Will try a fire with one at the range.

I have always used hornady 150 gr FMJBT, and wanted to try something a little heavier...168. Read better for longer range accuracy.

Has anyone had this experience? What is the correction? What to check?
Is this something seen with heavier bullets (larger)?

This was not expected...uggh
Thx

 

[brccd]

re: hornady 168 loads...
some additional info...
did some checking on the forum and around...
Possible seater die a little too far in...bumping shoulders? So backed it off a bit, reset seater and tried on another bunch of "good cases" which tested correctly in the cartridge gauge...these too all trimmed and measured correctly. Again, primed, 41gr varget, and Hornady 168gr a-max... Had 13 of these to try...

These cases were also WRA Nato types... (previous were Lake City, IK, Winchester, and Federal and a mix of few others...)

Well, after the slight adjustment, all 13 were loaded and all tested correctly in the cartridge gauge.

So, why did 80% of the previous batch seem to be ok...if the die were off, wouldn't all of the cartridges be off?

Question:
If these other 20% cartriges load in the rifle (bolt action) , and the bolt closes with no issue, these should be ok to fire...does that sound right?
I know a few people say get rid of those gauges!

All these little mysteries.

 

[brccd]

update...went to the range today, and all the variations of the catridges i had all worked fine in the two different rifles. also got the redding body die today so willl be trying that out...that is all!

 

[Webster]

update...went to the range today, and all the variations of the catridges i had all worked fine in the two different rifles. also got the redding body die today so willl be trying that out...that is all!

The rifle is a gauge. If you can easily close the bolt you should be good to go.

 

[brccd]

The rifle is a gauge. If you can easily close the bolt you should be good to go.

right...thats the final word...

In the meantime, received my sheridan gauge...you can check the cartridge and the case, and visually see where things may be wrong with a window into the "chamber fit" ... really like this:




I have the Hornady cartridge gauge also and it looks like the Hornady is measuring minimums, the Sheridan is looking like the average of min and max.

Also have the Dillon Case legnth/head space gauge, and that one looks like maximums!

But final check, like you say is loading it in the rifle for a check!

I am finding that if things fit in the sheridan, and especially in the Hornady gauge correctly, things work correctly in the rifle.

 

[DShortt]

Can someone explain how these 'cut away' gauges really tell you anything a standard cartridge gauge, such as a Wilson, can not? If you had a cut-away gauge, cut with the same reamer by your gunsmith, I could see it.
But this kinda looks like...... a solution looking for a problem.

 

[brccd]

I just used it today and saw a slight problem... I had made a batch of cartridges up, and they did work in the rifle. However, The would not fully seat easily in the gauges...using the cutaway version, I could see some hang up just where the mouth of the case and bullet meet. I tried doing a slight crimp on it, and then the cartridge slid in smoothly. So that was one thing. That was with 168 gr bullets. I had been using only 150 gr up to that point. If the case has a buldge, you could spot that as well. As you work with it, I think you learn how to spot things quickly. One thing, if shoulder is wrong, I think that would be noticiable. I have had a few making measurments with just calipers and things look right and still a problem! ... ..so, just my first observations...

 

[DShortt]

I just used it today and saw a slight problem... I had made a batch of cartridges up, and they did work in the rifle. However, The would not fully seat easily in the gauges...using the cutaway version, I could see some hang up just where the mouth of the case and bullet meet. I tried doing a slight crimp on it, and then the cartridge slid in smoothly. So that was one thing. That was with 168 gr bullets. I had been using only 150 gr up to that point. If the case has a buldge, you could spot that as well. As you work with it, I think you learn how to spot things quickly. One thing, if shoulder is wrong, I think that would be noticiable. I have had a few making measurments with just calipers and things look right and still a problem! ... ..so, just my first observations...

OK, so your case mouth was flared and interfering.
You could have blackened your loaded brass with a Sharpie and seen the same thing without any case gauge. If it chambers in your rifle, yet interferes in your case gauge, that only means that your chamber is larger than the case gauge. Now what? You're sizing your brass to fit your chamber gauge, not your chamber unless I mis-read your post.

Or do you disagree?

 

[brccd]

Yes, Sharpie is the other way, and have tried that...for me, this tool just seems to make it easier. As you say, the gun is the true test. I have found so far though, at least in my case, if the cartridges work smoothly in the gauge tests, they are working in the guns that I have...so far. If there is a problem still after that, then, yes, out comes the sharpie! As I mentioned, I have been trying new size\type bullets, so some new details showing...

 

[dellet]

Actually this is one of those occasions where the cartridge gauge cut with a minimum reamer found a problem that would not be found with a gauge cut with the same reamer as the barrel. The round chambered, no reason to check anything.

There’s a good chance that the actual problem is a poor de-burr/chamfer causing a doughnut at the case mouth. Note the line visible on your case in the gauge. Unexplained flyer in the making. The cases with the doughnut sit different in the chamber. Or in this case where it was smoothed out with a crimp, differing neck tension.

The Sheridan gauge is an wonderful tool for people who are transitioning from assembling cartridges, to handloading. They have finally learned enough to start asking great questions. It allows you to have a visual for all the terms and sizing adjustments.

The first time you drop virgin brass into a gauge and it drops below the minimum level, it’s a mystery. New shouldn’t be out of spec. With a cut away gauge, you can see the problem.

There are uses that you find that are not in the instructions, this is where the real value is. Drop a bullet in, if the tip does not drop out the bottom, it can’t be loaded to max or magazine length. Double check in your chamber, maybe it has a longer throat, but it’s a good indicator.

Before removing the bullet, insert a sized case. This will tell if the bullet is likely to leave the case, before hitting the lands. Easy to see in a slotted version.

The op is having problems with the base out of spec. Can’t see that even in a slotted gauge. But if you Mark the 200 line on the case then turn the case over and insert it into the gauge base first, you can see where the base is too fat. it’s very accurate at identifying over sized bases. If you have a gauge, try new and fired case, you’ll see a difference. You now have a go/no-go gauge for checking bases.

Nothing really replaces actual measurements, but the slotted gauge can really help give those measurements meaning. It really does help people with a visual aid in understanding what setting a shoulder back does, how a jam works.

Not everyone needs one, but they have helped a lot of people take a few steps forward in their hand loading process.