Interesting phenomenon

[milboltnut]

wouldn't anneal after every firing... you'll work the brass too hard. Defeating the purpose annealing from work hardening sizing.

 

[timeout]

wouldn't anneal after every firing... you'll work the brass too hard. Defeating the purpose annealing from work hardening sizing.

I'm not a metallurgist, but this doesn't make sense to me. Maybe someone with knowledge in the field and facts to back this up will respond?

 

[Tokay444]

Annealing REMOVES the work hardening. It doesn’t add to it. That’s why it’s done.

 

[milboltnut]

annealing softens the metal to prevent work hardening that make the brass brittle. Anneal size anneal size anneal size... you're making matters worse. Heating cooling heating cooling, sizing etc...you're working the brass too much.

 

[Tokay444]

No.
Yes annealing softens the metal. That’s the point. When it gets too hard it becomes brittle and breaks. So we anneal to prevent that.
I do everything exactly the same every time I reload, so that I get consistent and predictable results on target. That’s why I anneal every time. That way my brass is the same every time.

 

[Tokay444]

Bend a piece of brass back and forth in a pair of pliers and count how many times you can bend it before it breaks.
Then bend it back and forth but anneal it every time. If you manage to get a full recrystallization each annealing, it would almost last forever.

 

[Webster]

This is typical of what I get with MA die.

View attachment 1230053

I don't know what it means but the MA die photo shows the tarnish layer being rubbed off of the shoulder. The other photos don't have it. If a fired case rechambers easily it doesn't need to be bumped. When adjusting my die for bump I would back the die off so there is definitley no bump and keep reloading the case until the case was fired twice. This is now my reference bump gauge zero bump or a number close to zero. I set back 0.002" from this measurement or a little more so there is easy bolt closure on a sized unloaded case. There may be other ways to do it? What's the as fired case bump gauge measurement for the three examples. Cannot read your post while I am typing.

You ground 0.020" off of the MA die because the case had to be pushed farther into the die to get 0.002" bump. The die was originally machined so the case body could be properly sized because you are pushing a tapered case body into a tapered die body. Someone else more knowledgable can comment on this. But it seems to me that since the case body is tapered, the case has to be pushed farther into the die body taper to make the case shoulder contact the die shoulder. Does this just sized the body a few thou more? Looking at one of my Redding dies and a Whidden die. They both have a radius at the entry to the die . The Whidden die as more radius than the Redding.. The die doesn't start sizing till your past the radius. What would Redding say about how grinding off the bottom of a die affects body sizing when your pushing the case farther into the die. I think the die adjustment instructions say just screw the die down till it touches the shell holder with the ram all the way up, then back off 1/4 turn. Sounds like it's not critical as far as you don't care what the bump is.

 

[Tokay444]

I don't know what it means but the MA die photo shows the tarnish layer being rubbed off of the shoulder. The other photos don't have it. Tight fit bolt rotation scrub? If a fired case rechambers easily it doesn't need to be bumped. When adjusting my die for bump I would back the die off so there is definitley no bump and keep reloading the case until I felt bolt closure resistance. This is now my reference bump gauge zero bump or a number close to zero. I set back 0.002" from this measurement or a little more so there is easy bolt closure on a sized unloaded case. There may be other ways to do it? I get the impression that some guys just measure a fired case and set back from that measurement. What's the as fired case bump gauge measurement for the three examples. Cannot read your post while I am typing.

I fire new cases twice before bumping shoulders to ensure they are fully formed to my chamber length.
Both the MA die and my Redding body die are set to bump the exact same .002” from a fully formed case.

 

[Tokay444]

I don't know what it means but the MA die photo shows the tarnish layer being rubbed off of the shoulder. The other photos don't have it. If a fired case rechambers easily it doesn't need to be bumped. When adjusting my die for bump I would back the die off so there is definitley no bump and keep reloading the case until the case was fired twice. This is now my reference bump gauge zero bump or a number close to zero. I set back 0.002" from this measurement or a little more so there is easy bolt closure on a sized unloaded case. There may be other ways to do it? What's the as fired case bump gauge measurement for the three examples. Cannot read your post while I am typing.

You ground 0.020" off of the MA die because the case had to be pushed farther into the die to get 0.002" bump. The die was originally machined so the case body could be properly sized because you are pushing a tapered case body into a tapered die body. Someone else more knowledgable can comment on this. But it seems to me that since the case body is tapered, the case has to be pushed farther into the die body taper to make the case shoulder contact the die shoulder. Does this just sized the body a few thou more? Looking at one of my Redding dies and a Whidden die. They both have a radius at the entry to the die . The Whidden die as more radius than the Redding.. The die doesn't start sizing till your past the radius. What would Redding say about how grinding off the bottom of a die affects body sizing when your pushing the case farther into the die. I think the die adjustment instructions say just screw the die down till it touches the shell holder with the ram all the way up, then back off 1/4 turn. Sounds like it's not critical as far as you don't care what the bump is.

I faced .020” off the shell holder, because it was an arbitrary number that I know would give me the bump I needed without touching the die. Neither MA die nor the Redding body die touch the shell holder. The Redding die never did. The case body diameter at the body/shoulder junction is the same from both dies, as measured with my good Mitutoyo digital micrometer.
I care what the bump is. It’s .002”.

 

[Tokay444]

I will always alter a $4 shell holder over $150 die.

 

[Tokay444]

you're weakening the brass, trust me. The molecular structure is weakened.

I’ll take “weakened brass”, although I don’t agree, for 25+ firings until the primers won’t stay in, over split necks after 5 or 6.
Soft doesn’t mean weak.

 

[milboltnut]

Never did it.... but I know from using a torch, on steel as a mechanic it definitely effects it, eventually. But I'll take your word for it, considering I never annealed after every firing. Seems like a waste of time. 25 + firings..? With components scarce these days, I guess I'll never know !

I thought about an easy way to anneal.... the rotating propane torch machine looks nice, but every thing costs money. Got anything home made?

 

[Tokay444]

Never did it.... but I know from using a torch, on steel as a mechanic it definitely effects it, eventually. But I'll take your word for it, considering I never annealed after every firing. Seems like a waste of time. 25 + firings..? With components scarce these days, I guess I'll never know !

I’m not using a torch and I don’t reload steel cases.
Yes annealing affects the material. That’s the point. The effect is what you’re after.

 

[milboltnut]

so do you have a rotating propane unit?

 

[Tokay444]

I salt bath anneal.

 

[Edd]

I would measure the size of the case and the shoulder angle after sizing with each die and see if that gave me any ideas.

 

[Tokay444]

I would measure the size of the case and the shoulder angle after sizing with each die and see if that gave me any ideas.

Both dies give me the same body diameter above the web, and as mentioned above, the same body diameter at the shoulder.
In the original post I mentioned that the shoulder angles are the same about both dies.

 

[Edd]

Something is different.

 

[Tokay444]

Something is different.

I couldn’t agree more.

 

[milboltnut]

I salt bath anneal.

Texas 10 has a write up... on here. Good write up?