Interesting phenomenon 168vld

[Slim13]

I had my 7mm Rem Mag RE-barreled. New contour, chamber cut from same reamer though. I knew roughly where my load would be but did a ladder test in a short window to confirm. It worked out that the same load i shot previously is optimal with the new barrel. Groups were in the .7’s at 100 yds. At 500 I shot a 2.5” group. I’ve heard reports of VLD’s grouping better at distance than at 100. As I consider that phenomenon, how is that possible? I’m a true believer in the old saying “It’s the Indian - NOT the arrow”....how is it ballistically possible for this to occur? I’m betting this is a fluke. Thoughts?

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

I had my 7mm Rem Mag RE-barreled. New contour, chamber cut from same reamer though. I knew roughly where my load would be but did a ladder test in a short window to confirm. It worked out that the same load i shot previously is optimal with the new barrel. Groups were in the .7’s at 100 yds. At 500 I shot a 2.5” group. I’ve heard reports of VLD’s grouping better at distance than at 100. As I consider that phenomenon, how is that possible? I’m a true believer in the old saying “It’s the Indian - NOT the arrow”....how is it ballistically possible for this to occur? I’m betting this is a fluke. Thoughts?

I believe that PC (Positive Compensation) is the answer that the experienced 1000 yard shooter would provide. This is why they actually tune & ladder test at the range that the intended shooting is going to take place. @Alex Wheeler has written some good posts on the forum in regards to it. (PC). And it also means that the smallest groups at shorter ranges are not necessarily going to yield the tightest groups at longer ranges.
Barrel harmonics & stiffness of stock all play into the PC equation.

 

[Slim13]

I believe that PC (Positive Compensation) is the answer that the experienced 1000 yard shooter would provide. This is why they actually tune & ladder test at the range that the intended shooting is going to take place. @Alex Wheeler has written some good posts on the forum in regards to it. (PC). And it also means that the smallest groups at shorter ranges are not necessarily going to yield the tightest groups at longer ranges.
Barrel harmonics & stiffness of stock all play into the PC equation.

Thanks for the reply. I tell ya...with each passing year in this shooting game I come across yet another rabbit hole to crawl into. Hahaha

 

[hogpatrol]

It takes a few hundred yards before they straighten up and fly right. At least that's what I've read on the internet. Must be true.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

I also have no idea why and I know Bryan Litz is still waiting for a person the demonstrate it to him but I see the same thing with the 105 HVLD's. Maybe its me or the rifle but luckily I rarely shoot at 100y

 

[Bart B.]

I’ve heard reports of VLD’s grouping better at distance than at 100. As I consider that phenomenon, how is that possible? I’m a true believer in the old saying “It’s the Indian - NOT the arrow”....how is it ballistically possible for this to occur? I’m betting this is a fluke. Thoughts?

It has been known by smart ballistic people for over 100 years that positive compensation happens. Slower velocity bullets leave at a higher angle above LOS than faster ones so the greater drop of slower ones is compensated for. Best done with all bullets leaving on muzzle axis upswing.

If compensated at 600 yards, groups at 300 and 1000 will be bigger vertically in MOA than at 600.

 

[Bart B.]

I also have no idea why and I know Bryan Litz is still waiting for a person the demonstrate it to him but I see the same thing with the 105 HVLD's.

I think Brian Litz limits his challenge to 300 yards. Yet he has never acknowledged any rim or center fire match rifle with a tuner on its barrel proving it which had been done for decades.

There are some who believe the earth is flat and conjure up all sorts of ways to prove it. They belong to The Flat Earth Society.

 

[Bart B.]

It takes a few hundred yards before they straighten up and fly right. At least that's what I've read on the internet. Must be true.

I think Sierra Bullets proved in the 1960's that bullets straighten up and fly right before going through paper at 100 yards. Why else would their best bullets shoot in the ones or better?

Not you've read something contrary on the 'net.

 

[Liven The Dream]

I got into this many times. I shoot Palma and 1000 Prone Matches ,been tiring hard for years.
Some years back there was a article about Boat Tail Bullets ? That article pointed out in there belief , Boat Tail Bullets start to fly best past 200 yards. ????
I have always test all my reloads at 200 to 300 yards . I do a lot prep to my reloading and have had good to better results .
I think 100 yard testing is a gift for Rifle and Ammo Company's !

Best of Luck on any road to take...

 

[Milo 2.0]

I got into this many times. I shoot Palma and 1000 Prone Matches ,been tiring hard for years.
Some years back there was a article about Boat Tail Bullets ? That article pointed out in there belief , Boat Tail Bullets start to fly best past 200 yards. ????
I have always test all my reloads at 200 to 300 yards . I do a lot prep to my reloading and have had good to better results .
I think 100 yard testing is a gift for Rifle and Ammo Company's !

Best of Luck on any road to take...

I hate getting into these threads. I like you develop at distance, and have seen a 1/2 moa load at 100 remain 1/2 moa at 500 yards. But I've also seen if you tighten that 1/2 moa load at distance, when you bring it back to 100, all of a sudden group size has shrunk considerably.
Today I tune out people who shoot sleeping bullets, either they wanted to sleep instead of developing a load or their gun does not shoot that good.

 

[pirate ammo]

sleeping bullets

that all I saw,,had to think about how a bullets going to sleep with a load of powder blowing its butt off,,

 

[rammac]

Man oh man, I'm so glad that I can learn the real science behind bullet performance from the experts here rather than having to be stuck listening to that goofy Litz kid with all his education in physics and ballistics, his precision experimentation using lab grade test equipment, and his experience competing out to 2 plus miles with rifles. I'm far more confident in Billy Bob's technical knowledge over a couple of glasses of home brew.

 

[mike a]

I had my 7mm Rem Mag RE-barreled. New contour, chamber cut from same reamer though. I knew roughly where my load would be but did a ladder test in a short window to confirm. It worked out that the same load i shot previously is optimal with the new barrel. Groups were in the .7’s at 100 yds. At 500 I shot a 2.5” group. I’ve heard reports of VLD’s grouping better at distance than at 100. As I consider that phenomenon, how is that possible? I’m a true believer in the old saying “It’s the Indian - NOT the arrow”....how is it ballistically possible for this to occur? I’m betting this is a fluke. Thoughts?

Hi slim, do a search of (bullet goes to sleep mode) enjoy the novel.

 

[Slim13]

Hi slim, do a search of (bullet goes to sleep mode) enjoy the novel.

Right before bed I suppose.

 

[Bart B.]

Here's an article decades old explaining why the British 303 SMLE rifles shot more accurate at long range than mid range.

https://archive.org/details/philtrans05900167

Other interesting sites....

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/barrel_vibrations.htm

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm

http://www.varmintal.com/ , links “22LR Rifle & Tuner” down thru “6PPC Barrel Dynamics”

 

[mike a]

I think the BR guys should know. Are the longrange BR groups orders of magnatude smaller (moa) than the short range groups. What do the records tell us.

 

[dmoran]

I think the BR guys should know. Are the longrange BR groups orders of magnatude smaller (moa) than the short range groups. What do the records tell us.

In benchrest, SR groups are not shot the same as LR groups are at matches, there for are not an equal comparison.
In SR-BR they can shoot as many extra sighter's as they want during there record string, where in LR-BR there limited to only the 5 or 10 record shots.

 

[Bart B.]

I think the BR guys should know. Are the longrange BR groups orders of magnatude smaller (moa) than the short range groups. What do the records tell us.

Good question but different rifles are shot in each discipline so not a reasonable comparison. Loads for each may tuned for range

Shoot both in each discipline and then compare. I'd shoot both at 100, 600 and 1000 yards with same respective load. No load or barrel tuning allowed.

Many 10 shot group agg's should be used. Not the smallest 5 shot groups which are mostly luck because they're rarely repeated by the same system.

 

[mike a]

Without getting to far away from the op. I'm the guy that started that sleepy bullet 15 pager. Since then I've taken alot of the advice given. I've got a more accurate rifle, a better scope with a target dot. Carefully adjust out paralex and shoot at much much smaller targets. Etc. I can no longer reproduce the phenomenon. Shucks. Mike

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The best advice I can give is to get to a match. I dont mean to come off as a jerk, but the bs I read on the internet just does not match up to what I see from top shooters that are doing it and winning year after year. Heres some 1kyd group ladders shot last weekend by Tom Mousel.